[IMPORTANT] Changes for the clan wars

Kirjoittanut Dave, 02.06.2021 at 15:37

Just to follow up on this.... I looked into everything, checked logs, etc, and there is no evidence of any cheating or rule violations.

Some people have suggested different rules for the current season. I'm open to whatever the majority agree to do, as long as it doesn't require a shit ton of coding changes. If you want to do a playoff of final 4 next time, fine. Or whatever else you want to do.... discuss it, find a consensus, and let me know.

OK as an echo to the statement above, I want to let you guys know that the mod team is decided to change the cw scene this season. The BS has been there for too long.

So I think it's fair to ask you what your proposals are in a dedicated topic.

There are a lot of them already, I'm fully aware of that but I want to make a new one which would imply a dedicated format / guidelines, at least that would answer the following notions (not an obligation but I think it's good that we all follow the same pattern)

• explain your change (10 lines max, keep it simple, we'll pr u for more details if so)
  
  
• why would it be better that what we have now
  
  
• explain how the change will increase activity
  
  
• explain how the change will give an incentive for new players to play cws
  
  
• explain how the change will prevent bad behaviors (clan hoping, farming last day of season, camping etc...)
  
  
• explain how the change difficulty to implement
  
  

Please try to keep things simple, we don't need to make a smoke factory, the system needs to be easily understandable

I don't think huge changes need to happen but I will propose a simple idea and solution for almost anything.

A clan to be able to win a medal will to need to have played atletast 15% of the total cws played in season. What would that mean for example in last season? MK 1st Hellenism 2nd Paradox 3rd. It would push elitist clans to search for activity in new guys, and the lower elo clans would have a way to "force" high elo clans to play them. The number 15% might seem high but it really isn't. Everyone could easily have played 120 cws last season no matter their squad, even a 3 people clan. Feel free to discuss over it and spot any problems and i will try to elaborate more because I personally can't find any.

Kirjoittanut JUGERS2, 03.06.2021 at 04:12

I don't think huge changes need to happen but I will propose a simple idea and solution for almost anything.

A clan to be able to win a medal will to need to have played atletast 15% of the total cws played in season. What would that mean for example in last season? MK 1st Hellenism 2nd Paradox 3rd. It would push elitist clans to search for activity in new guys, and the lower elo clans would have a way to "force" high elo clans to play them. The number 15% might seem high but it really isn't. Everyone could easily have played 120 cws last season no matter their squad, even a 3 people clan. Feel free to discuss over it and spot any problems and i will try to elaborate more because I personally can't find any.

I really like your idea, and your idea should be applied retroactively

Remove the trophies for seasonal elo but we can have prizes (sp/pc) for top 4, top 4 get to play Final 4 with trophies for top 3 and keep the activity trophy maybe we should add one for most active player too.

Final 4 starts first month of the other season, clan founder/leaders will pick their players, the players must have played most of their cws last season in this clan so we don't have stupid teams with the best players of 3 clans.

The prizes for top 4 and the activity trophy will force clans to keep playing for 90 days, the final 4 is only skills no farming.

For the lowranks idk, it's up to the clans, if you want to play more cws you need more players so inviting lowranks can help them to win the activity trophy.

Oh we need clear rules for serbwalls and rewalls some players don't have the same definition and it's annoying.

Kirjoittanut JUGERS2, 03.06.2021 at 04:12

Nice idea to partially get rid of camping and actually to 'hide' clans which doesn't qualify for recieving a trophy by activity.
I suggested something similar back in 2015. (with outdated numbers) and also year ago to staff team ---> https://hr.atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=18751

What you think of just setting up a barrier on 100 clan wars?
Is it too much or fine?


---
THE PROBLEM:
Also, if idea like 'ours' of setting up the barrier goes through, how would you solve dodging for example?
Let's say Mirage has 90 plays and no one wants to play against them so they cannot compete for actual trophy as they can't reach 100?

Kirjoittanut Croat, 03.06.2021 at 05:38

Kirjoittanut JUGERS2, 03.06.2021 at 04:12

Nice idea to get rid of camping and actually to 'hide' clans which doesn't qualify for recieving a trophy by activity.
I suggested something similar back in 2015. and also year ago to staff team ---> https://hr.atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=18751

What you think of just setting up a barrier on 100 clan wars?
Is it too much or fine?


---
THE PROBLEM:
Also, if idea like 'ours' of setting up the barrier goes through, how would you solve dodging for example?
Let's say Mirage has 90 plays and no one wants to play against them so they cannot compete for actual trophy as they can't reach 100?

That's why the barrier should be a % and not an actual number, because it should be relative to the season activeness. If an x clan fails to achieve it i don't think it's because of dodging but because they didn't try enough. The only way of a clan not achieving it is if the big majority of the clans(80%) don't CW you. If that happens i don't think it's called dodging, but would be that clans fault. Overall, all you have to do is average 1.5cws per day and you shouldn't be concerned about the threshold.

Remove seasons completely. Instead make competitive matchmaking like csgo, r6... It would make easier to bring newbs who are interested into competitive but without a clan (or clan that is limiting them) into competitive. It would let player mix more and not be limited by their clanmates, it would remove drama alltogether.

You could still have tourneys for the clans and give em badges like individual players.

Kirjoittanut Black Swans, 03.06.2021 at 05:47

Remove seasons completely. Instead make competitive matchmaking like csgo, r6... It would make easier to bring newbs who are interested into competitive but without a clan (or clan that is limiting them) into competitive. It would let player mix more and not be limited by their clanmates, it would remove drama alltogether.

You could still have tourneys for the clans and give em badges like individual players.

Our playerbase isn't big enough to make this work

Kirjoittanut Leo, 03.06.2021 at 07:08

Kirjoittanut Black Swans, 03.06.2021 at 05:47

Remove seasons completely. Instead make competitive matchmaking like csgo, r6... It would make easier to bring newbs who are interested into competitive but without a clan (or clan that is limiting them) into competitive. It would let player mix more and not be limited by their clanmates, it would remove drama alltogether.

You could still have tourneys for the clans and give em badges like individual players.

Our playerbase isn't big enough to make this work

Who wants finds a way, who doesn't finds an excuse

Maybe it is time for a complete CW system revamp? I've had this idea for long time, and I think now is the time to start implementing it.

Detach clans from competetive play - everyone should on his own have a chance to play, without a matter if he is in a clan or not.
When a player clicks on option to play CW, he should have a choice to pick main role (east - Turkey/Ukraine, West - Germany/UK, 3rd pick - France/Spain).
When there are enough players, game should start. System will randomly choose who gets which country out of the pairs, and teams should be fixed to these:
Team alpha: UK, France, Ukraine
Team beta: Germany, Spain, Turkey
Someone would probably dislike fixed teams and no option for other 3rd pick, but this is the most played and most balanced scenario.
Every player would have seasonal CW elo of his own, and players would compete on their own.
When teams are formed, and game starts, mean seasonal elo's of both teams should be calculated, and resulting elo changes should depend on that mean elo value of each team - every player will get/lose the same amount of elo.
We should have multiple divisions, to make it more balanced. For example, top 10% seasonal elo players are rank 10, next 10% are rank 9 etc..... Player from division of rank 10 should not be able to get in a game with players from rank 3 or something like that. Player from division rank 10 would be in a game with fellow rank 10's, rank 9's and rank 8's possibly (depending on activity).

This revamp would give all players a choice to play, and new players to not be pressured by their clans or controled by clans leaders wether or not they can play.
Activity would be increased because it is not up to clan leaders to find and organize cw's, it will be done by an automatic system. Problem with clan stacking and not enough players in a clan for cw will be solved aswell.
New players will play with players of similiar strength, they will enjoy it more than being bullied by old players.
No clan hopping will be problem either, because clans would not matter for competetive plays; players will be in clans to talk, play normal games together, train, enjoy their time.
This is very difficult change to implement, it is a complete revamp of the system and it would take a long time to implement., but I believe it can be done for the next season.. We should leave the ongoing season to finish like previous ones and Dave could work on the new revamp for the next season, even extending this season if needed be.

Sorry, I know you told 10 lines max, but I could not explain it in shorter. I will make a separate post explaining my whole idea.

Kirjoittanut Leo, 03.06.2021 at 07:08

Our playerbase isn't big enough to make this work

How do you explain normal cw's being played then? His idea is similiar to mine, I think it will stimulate more players to try and play competetive.

Kirjoittanut Kaska, 03.06.2021 at 08:17

I like the idea of separating clans and competitive, altho I think it implies a lot of coding

Also a bit complicated, we seek for simple system that would be easy for everyone to understand

It does require a lot of coding, but I think it's worth it. about simplicity of solution, i think that it is very simple solution, nothing that wasn't seen in other games in similiar forms.

Kirjoittanut Johnny., 03.06.2021 at 11:12

Idea is half good half wrong
good: many players will be able to play cw more activity
Bad : 1: No real team work
2: people will start complain again about if some one lost intentionally as I've seen in 2-3 days.
3: Elo gambling, players will be able to sell them for pc
4: you are fixing countries not a good idea I think it's player choice or Team choice which combination they want to play.
5: Nothing related to Scenerio cw .
and will be more flaws IDK about much this stuff but what I think these will be disadvantages.

1. There will be team work, or you lose.
2. That player gets punished if found guilty, just like in every other game.
3. and it would not be possible now? punishable aswell.
4. it is an option, it is the best option if you ask me. CWs with different picking are played only if players from certain clan can't play all picks, so someone needs to skip the best picking order.
5. scenario cw will will not be a thing in a long time, it is way too complicated to implement and balance. Current cw system doesn't have option for scenarios either.

Kirjoittanut Bisexual, 03.06.2021 at 07:42

I like the idea of separating clans and competitive, altho I think it implies a lot of coding

Also a bit complicated, we seek for simple system that would be easy for everyone to understand

Kirjoittanut Bisexual, 03.06.2021 at 07:42

r15 = challenger , r14 master , r13 diamond , r12 plat , r11 gold , r10 silver , r9 bronze , r8 iron , r7 noob

Kirjoittanut Black Swans, 03.06.2021 at 07:24

Kirjoittanut Leo, 03.06.2021 at 07:08

Kirjoittanut Black Swans, 03.06.2021 at 05:47

Remove seasons completely. Instead make competitive matchmaking like csgo, r6... It would make easier to bring newbs who are interested into competitive but without a clan (or clan that is limiting them) into competitive. It would let player mix more and not be limited by their clanmates, it would remove drama alltogether.

You could still have tourneys for the clans and give em badges like individual players.

Our playerbase isn't big enough to make this work

Who wants finds a way, who doesn't finds an excuse

This idea won't work for team games because it removes the team aspect from it. It will work for duels though, but we need a baseline of duel settings first before working on it.

Kirjoittanut Bisexual, 03.06.2021 at 07:42

Idea is half good half wrong
good: many players will be able to play cw more activity
Bad : 1: No real team work
2: people will start complain again about if some one lost intentionally as I've seen in 2-3 days.
3: Elo gambling, players will be able to sell them for pc
4: you are fixing countries not a good idea I think it's player choice or Team choice which combination they want to play.
5: Nothing related to Scenerio cw .
and will be more flaws IDK about much this stuff but what I think these will be disadvantages.

I have said that before in a post responding to croat who was complaining about activity and dodging, and i will say it again here. There should be an official league like The War by Croat where after the organized matches end, the top4 would go to play offs. This way the upsets and the huge changes in the table dont happen in the last day and the teams that really had the best consistant perfomance get to fight in a bo3/5 to win each trophy. Its the most fair way to compete, avoids dodging too and congratulates those who were good for the past 89 days!
And something else, what about adding a trophy for the most active cwer ?

Oh so you are asking us why our suggestion will be better than what exists, so:

1. Avoids clans from dodging other clans.
2. Rewards the Clans that are consistant for the entirety of the season.
3. Allows people to compete in a high skill competition.
4. It will prevent clan hopping since the competiting players will be registered in the clan that they started with at the moment and there will be probably a rule preventing clan hopping. (or it will allow only minimal clan changes that will be regulated by the organizers)
5. There wont be problems with clans that played lots of clan wars feeling like they got robbed by clans that played less clan wars, or these clans feeling entintled to a title just because they have lots of games. Every clan will have equal games.
6. No major upsets at the last day of the season will happen.
7. It's the fairest way to compete as well because of how well organized it will and equal for everyone.
8. The play-off system will ensure that the best clans will be the ones that will be the contenders for the 3 trophies.
9. This system will make it so that every game counts and it wont be the same "ugh its the start of the season we do not care" that some clans probably used in their advantage in the past to gain elo early and then camp.
10. Clans cant join in the last days randomly, which will prevent feeding and make the chance of random upsets 0.
11. It will increase the activity because it will be another place were clans compete for a trophy.
12. New players who want to enter competitive and low ranks can watch these clan wars and learn from watching "high skilled" players.
13. Clans wont be able to camp with this system

Theres a few dissadvantages with this obviously, no system will be perfect. I feel like this maybe should be seperate from the current cw system and not something that will replace it, But i think it should be something OFFICIAL that happens every three or six months and the prizes and trophies are EQUAL to what we are used at all this past seasons.
Anyways here are the dissadvantages:

1. Elitism will probably dominate it and prevent a lot of new players play in "pro" clans, but nonetheless these players can make their own amateur clans and compete and learn and improve.
2. Some clans may go inactive during mid season for whatever reason.
3. Players will have to enter at the start of the season and players that came back to the game midway of the season, they will be left out.
4. Some players may not be able during some of the days that some games are organized, and also in general organizing games between selected players sometimes is hard, but i think ~7 days can be enough for most.
(?)Not sure if this a dissadvantage, but the organizer/s will have to be active through the entirety of the season and be responsible and try to make the experience as fair as possible, which will need a lot of moderation.

So in conclusion, this isnt a suggestion to change the current system exactly because in my opinion the benefits of it will be maximized if its seperate and it doesnt replace the current system. its something that will maximize activity, wont change the landscape too much and hey, why not man, it doesnt even need crazy coding, good sir croat did it already with 0 coding with relative success, i think the entire mod and admin team will not struggle to implement it.
Now if you want to replace the entirety of the system with this go ahead, you know better.

Incase you are wondering how that system will look like, heres The War Tournament, which will be the base and main example for this system:
https://atwar-game.com//forum/topic.php?topic_id=45141

Kirjoittanut Alex, 03.06.2021 at 11:39

I don't think it will increase activity, during The War I didn't want to play other cws than The War, they were less important for us.

But The War every season it's a yes, I've never played better games than The War games lol

31

Kirjoittanut Froyer, 03.06.2021 at 12:11

Kirjoittanut Alex, 03.06.2021 at 11:39

I don't think it will increase activity, during The War I didn't want to play other cws than The War, they were less important for us.

But The War every season it's a yes, I've never played better games than The War games lol

depends, we played more cws because the war, but i think overall the cw numbers will be higher which is why i said that
but, ye not everyone will cw more because of it

I say current seasonal System is correct it just has some flaws if they are to bee looked and solved I guess it will bring more activity in cw

1: CW rules needs to be revised.
2: ELO Decay after 1 week of non activity / and must of 7-10 cw min in week to avoid elo decay.
3: Brainawl Position to be handed over to some New face rather than OLD Sid and MODS , who will be Neutral in whole season and will look after all the matter of cw and mods be directed to him to implement CW rules.
4: Clans that are made in last month or after should not be allowed to compete for season Trophy.
5: If the clan that is Leading in the Leader board has played 100 CW rest clans has to have minimum of 50% CW played in orded to compete for the Leader board, it's not big number even if you look Hellenism that almost played 300 CW if they were in first top 3 position rest clans has to have minimum of 150 CW to compete.
6: More Awards to be given for example:
1: Most Cw played Prize : XYZ amount of PC
2: Most CW wins Prize : XYZ amount of PC.
if you implement the Group Like Stages that looks like Glitter but Belive me it won't increase activity neither will resolve the Isuues, Just need a Good management System and nothing else.

Why not quite simply, prohibit players from playing CW in another coalition, when they have already played 1 CW game with a coalition?
This prevents players from leaving X coalitions, to join X coalitions during the same season, that seems logical, doesn't it?

Or forbid them to join a coalition, when they have left their coalitions after having played at least 1 CW during a season.

When we leave a coalition, we have 48 hours before we can join a new one.
Why not wait until the opening of the new season? dead-line?

Maybe the CW seasons would be more existing to play this way for the participants?

Rather than playing, make it easier to open a new coalition one with a full elo and other players.

It could also give life to a system of player transfer, between seasons, instead of changing coalitions every month. This can greatly distort the final ranking.

I am not in the best position to talk about this, I agree, because I am not a player who practices a lot of CW.
But I think his ideas can do good for this 90-day game mode, it's not nothing for the players who participate seriously throughout the period.

I'm not saying what I'm saying is right or wrong.
I think players have to stop wandering between coalitions indefinitely during the season, that's not a good thing, it's just not normal.
This is what is unfair for the players participating in it normally during a whole season:






Otherwise I find this idea of Pavle not bad :

Maybe it is time for a complete CW system revamp? I've had this idea for long time, and I think now is the time to start implementing it.

Detach clans from competetive play - everyone should on his own have a chance to play, without a matter if he is in a clan or not.
When a player clicks on option to play CW, he should have a choice to pick main role (east - Turkey/Ukraine, West - Germany/UK, 3rd pick - France/Spain).

Kirjoittanut Kame Sennin Taz, 05.06.2021 at 08:11

another day, another post.

Rent free

Kirjoittanut Kame Sennin Taz, 05.06.2021 at 08:11

Bosniak Legion has like +120 cws if you combine both their clans (they remaked at 1016 elo so it's fine). So stop this narrative, if they actually only had 22 cws something wouldve been done.

Lol i come back after near one year of doing nothing in this game and still no one encourages to play cw in other maps/scenarios, and we do have a lot of them that are "ballanced".

Kirjoittanut Leo, 05.06.2021 at 10:02

Kirjoittanut Kame Sennin Taz, 05.06.2021 at 08:11

Bosniak Legion has like +120 cws if you combine both their clans (they remaked at 1016 elo so it's fine). So stop this narrative, if they actually only had 22 cws something wouldve been done.

I know very well that he comes from this coalition.
But why did you change and do another one?
Why not just stay and win with the first one?

Kirjoittanut Kame Sennin Taz, 06.06.2021 at 01:48

It's a long story but me and Swans had some differences on how things were to continue and I personally decided to end Bosniak Legion, Swans wanted to go on and create a new clan which he just happened to really like the name so he named it something similar. It wasn't a literal sequel to the clan per say but many left and joined that one so I do think its right to group them together in the sense of "activity" or number of games played. Ultimately Black Swans won third place and if you go back and look at the original clans performance he was the largest contributor so to take anything away from him would be criminal. He won the duel season and he won third place clan wars.

Kirjoittanut Croat, 03.06.2021 at 05:38

Kirjoittanut JUGERS2, 03.06.2021 at 04:12

Nice idea to partially get rid of camping and actually to 'hide' clans which doesn't qualify for recieving a trophy by activity.
I suggested something similar back in 2015. (with outdated numbers) and also year ago to staff team ---> https://hr.atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=18751

What you think of just setting up a barrier on 100 clan wars?
Is it too much or fine?


---
THE PROBLEM:
Also, if idea like 'ours' of setting up the barrier goes through, how would you solve dodging for example?
Let's say Mirage has 90 plays and no one wants to play against them so they cannot compete for actual trophy as they can't reach 100?

limiting cw's is backwards, will limit activity.
Camping is a problem but only if the elo pool (ie the number of clans playing cw's) is low. Camping on 1500 elo would probably be seen as acceptable... camping on 1200 could easily be overtaken with more active clans cw'ing

Kirjoittanut Phoenix, 07.06.2021 at 05:22

limiting cw's is backwards, will limit activity.

Its not limiting number of cws, but setting a barrier of cws to be played if you want to be shown on leaderboard/fight for trophy.

Anyways, there could be better ideas

OK I think pretty much everyone had a chance to say what they wanted, I'm locking this.

Thanks