AtWar Toxicity

Has AtWar become too toxic? I think so. Perhaps it is certain players and certain maps/scenarios that fuel the toxicity and not an AtWar thing.

I love WW1. I feel I've gotten to be a good Serbia. I understand things like not capping Greece neutrals when you are about to be overrun. While many players get totally vaporized by turn 6 as Serbia, I am a reliable Serb for being able to stack and provide Italy with a safe space to stack in the Balkans. I don't say any of this to claim accolades, but just to make the case that there is an incredible toxic atmosphere at times. What never ceases to amaze me is how I can do something right (e.g. letting my defensive stack get hit by AH) and yet be insulted, belittled, and called names all because while I made a good move, the result was not what I liked myself (e.g. my stack getting vaporized).

And then after one person insults, it becomes contagious, and begets a feedback loop, where others join in based on the first person. In this post, I will abstain from mentioning any other players by name. But it is kind of breathtaking when the attacks can even contradict (e.g. I'm overly defensive, and then I'm not defensive enough).

But the worst part is, of course, not that my play is critiqued. I don't mind that. I'm human. I make mistakes like everybody. It is that it is all name calling and insults. Don't dare miss a message in chat as you might be in the middle of grabbing something to drink while playing At War, because you might miss a joint attack, and next thing you know somebody in your own coalition is saying "ban the faggot".

And as you have to deal with all of the insults, you are put into a position of having to defend yourself by pointing out somebody else made an error, not because you care to get into all that, but trying to point out maybe the weak link was Italy which lost a transport ship and went to suicide in the Alps.

There is one player, who I will mention, b2spirit. I don't mention him for anything bad, although I was a bit disappointed it seems as though even he has caved a bit to the toxic crowd. I appreciate that he noted when he first started on WW1, I actually took time to teach him rather than trash him. And that's just it. If all we do is trash others in their mistakes, rather than taking time to sit down and teach somebody, help somebody, how do we expect them to get good? And why should we trash anybody over a game? I can at least feel good knowing that b2spirit told me I taught him Serbia well enough to equip him to play with the "pro" crowd (which has become the toxic crowd) and he is one of the few non premiums they let play on Serbia.

As for me, I have a few detractors. Where, exactly, it all started, I'm not entirely sure. Almost every game can be toxic. But more often than not, it starts with somebody who actually blames me for something I didn't even do wrong in a game. At least nothing critical. And then that person is insulting me, and then others see it, and they join in. And now there are a few people that absolutely will not play with me on their team with me being Serbia. There is a narrative that has been fueled and advanced that I am the "worst Serbia ever". Literally.

I don't call them names back. Just yesterday I was in the middle of a game as Serbia. At least one of my teammates on entente has me on ignore. Did I say something to him to make him do that? No. I don't know if he just has an anger problem and needed somebody to take his anger out on or what. But he has trashed me and my play as Serbia, but not just by pointing out a mistake or anything, but by name calling. So I make my stack as Serbia. I had Sofia capped because the opportunity presented itself, and I had a nice IF infantry stack parked in Sofia. It was a weak non premium AH, and I was planning to defend. And as that was happening, I was being messaged. The content of the messages? I'm the worst Serbia ever. Nobody on entente wanted me. I would even help the team by leaving. So about turn 15, I left. Why should I play for a team that doesn't want me? And how can I be both the worst Serbia ever and bad for leaving the game? Shouldn't my departure help entente? And yet me leaving becomes the pretext for people to make more comments, saying to get me banned.

Well, today I see I am banned by the one who hates me for no legitimate reason and calls me the "worst Serbia ever". I am attaching a screen shot of the message. The irony. It is nothing but profanity. And yet somehow I was supposed to fight for that team? I was the one who is bad for leaving the game turn 15? Have I ever called this person names like this? No. I post this to show just how toxic some of the games can become. And as somebody who had supported me now suggests, I don't think me leaving was me losing control of my emotions. Again, I have not responded in kind by name calling. Others call names, others tell me I'm not wanted on the team, I left. That's about the most professional way to deal with it. How is leaving a game a lack of emotional control, but then using language like what I show you good emotional control?

And might I add that not only does the toxicity prevent new players from coming up, but it prevents established players from learning new countries. You think I want to be in a game trying to do Otto for the first time when all that is going to happen is people will insult me and not even teach me?

I would like to give a shout out to an awesome player who did take time to teach me, and I think he would vouch for my skills on Serbia. Readbob. Because of Readbob, yes, I can do France. Albeit, there are some who cling to the narrative I'm the "worst Serb ever" and so would never permit as France in their game.

Banning Froyer = clean and healthy game

Readbob taught me France, not Serbia to be clear. I just began to apply certain principles to teach myself Serbia.

Naqshi bandi brigade

Modlife summarized:
If you take an action against player: 'NOO, DO YOU KNOW HOW SMALL THIS COMMUNITY IS, OMG WHY YOU PUNISHED HIM?? ATWAR WILL DIE'
If you don't take an action against player: 'ATWAR IS FILLED WITH TOO TOXIC PEOPLE, I DONT KNOW WHAT ARE MODS DOING?! ATWAR WILL DIE'

Back on topic,
yea, I gotta agree, there are certain individuals who just enjoy causing troubles. Just use report button, it won't be ignored, at least from my side

Yes. There is a balancing act when it comes to moderating At War. The one thing I wouldn't ask for is the people who ban me from their games to be banned from At War itself. That is their right to ban me from their games. Where I would start to protest is if they managed to get me banned from the map/scenario altogether. And there is a very delicate line that has to be walked when it comes to player bans and so forth, as many players are premium and paid for the service.

Kirjoittanut Croat, 08.10.2020 at 16:45

Modlife summarized:
If you take an action against player: 'NOO, DO YOU KNOW HOW SMALL THIS COMMUNITY IS, OMG WHY YOU PUNISHED HIM?? ATWAR WILL DIE'
If you don't take an action against player: 'ATWAR IS FILLED WITH TOO TOXIC PEOPLE, I DONT KNOW WHAT ARE MODS DOING?! ATWAR WILL DIE'

Back on topic,
yea, I gotta agree, there are certain individuals who just enjoy causing troubles. Just use ignore button, it won't be ignored, at least from my side

Kirjoittanut temp, 08.10.2020 at 16:01

Banning Froyer + JUGERS2 = clean and healthy game

Lol

Agreed, I used to play scenarios in the beginners room with much success but I don't play team scenarios anymore for this very reason. You can't even select a country without multiple high ranks chanting "failed game". Even if you manage to make the team, once turn 1 begins there are plenty of spectators saying "noob game" and "remake" which is quickly echoed by teammates and the game fails for no reason. And woe to you if a mistake is made, real or imaginary. High ranks appear eager to find a flaw in low ranks like wolves upon a young sheep.

I understand the high ranks want a "quality" game but even when they get one it fails much of the time due to incessant bickering and name calling. Ironically, these same players then complain that there is little activity anymore. Normal people play games because they want to have fun; few people would consider getting kicked or being verbally pummeled a "fun" experience or activity. These high ranks have set up a elite club that few have the drive to enter through that painful initiation trial by fire. And, since they are on the giving side of the stick, they have absolutely no clue what their bullying behavior feels like to up and coming players. I can't think of another game where this kind of tyranny exists at this level. If the elites would behave like men instead of miserable crybabies this game would experience an upsurge in players who stick with it. The game itself is great, but the bureaucracy is not. But, unless a purge is authorized, I doubt this will change.

Agreed gigi is very toxic

Kirjoittanut BigAssGoth, 09.10.2020 at 10:37

Agreed gigi is very toxic

he is talking about u, not about me.
in denial puch

Kirjoittanut EVERYBODYISGAY, 08.10.2020 at 15:49

Has AtWar become too toxic? I think so. Perhaps it is certain players and certain maps/scenarios that fuel the toxicity and not an AtWar thing.

I love WW1. I feel I've gotten to be a good Serbia. I understand things like not capping Greece neutrals when you are about to be overrun. While many players get totally vaporized by turn 6 as Serbia, I am a reliable Serb for being able to stack and provide Italy with a safe space to stack in the Balkans. I don't say any of this to claim accolades, but just to make the case that there is an incredible toxic atmosphere at times. What never ceases to amaze me is how I can do something right (e.g. letting my defensive stack get hit by AH) and yet be insulted, belittled, and called names all because while I made a good move, the result was not what I liked myself (e.g. my stack getting vaporized).

And then after one person insults, it becomes contagious, and begets a feedback loop, where others join in based on the first person. In this post, I will abstain from mentioning any other players by name. But it is kind of breathtaking when the attacks can even contradict (e.g. I'm overly defensive, and then I'm not defensive enough).

But the worst part is, of course, not that my play is critiqued. I don't mind that. I'm human. I make mistakes like everybody. It is that it is all name calling and insults. Don't dare miss a message in chat as you might be in the middle of grabbing something to drink while playing At War, because you might miss a joint attack, and next thing you know somebody in your own coalition is saying "ban the faggot".

And as you have to deal with all of the insults, you are put into a position of having to defend yourself by pointing out somebody else made an error, not because you care to get into all that, but trying to point out maybe the weak link was Italy which lost a transport ship and went to suicide in the Alps.

There is one player, who I will mention, b2spirit. I don't mention him for anything bad, although I was a bit disappointed it seems as though even he has caved a bit to the toxic crowd. I appreciate that he noted when he first started on WW1, I actually took time to teach him rather than trash him. And that's just it. If all we do is trash others in their mistakes, rather than taking time to sit down and teach somebody, help somebody, how do we expect them to get good? And why should we trash anybody over a game? I can at least feel good knowing that b2spirit told me I taught him Serbia well enough to equip him to play with the "pro" crowd (which has become the toxic crowd) and he is one of the few non premiums they let play on Serbia.

As for me, I have a few detractors. Where, exactly, it all started, I'm not entirely sure. Almost every game can be toxic. But more often than not, it starts with somebody who actually blames me for something I didn't even do wrong in a game. At least nothing critical. And then that person is insulting me, and then others see it, and they join in. And now there are a few people that absolutely will not play with me on their team with me being Serbia. There is a narrative that has been fueled and advanced that I am the "worst Serbia ever". Literally.

I don't call them names back. Just yesterday I was in the middle of a game as Serbia. At least one of my teammates on entente has me on ignore. Did I say something to him to make him do that? No. I don't know if he just has an anger problem and needed somebody to take his anger out on or what. But he has trashed me and my play as Serbia, but not just by pointing out a mistake or anything, but by name calling. So I make my stack as Serbia. I had Sofia capped because the opportunity presented itself, and I had a nice IF infantry stack parked in Sofia. It was a weak non premium AH, and I was planning to defend. And as that was happening, I was being messaged. The content of the messages? I'm the worst Serbia ever. Nobody on entente wanted me. I would even help the team by leaving. So about turn 15, I left. Why should I play for a team that doesn't want me? And how can I be both the worst Serbia ever and bad for leaving the game? Shouldn't my departure help entente? And yet me leaving becomes the pretext for people to make more comments, saying to get me banned.

Well, today I see I am banned by the one who hates me for no legitimate reason and calls me the "worst Serbia ever". I am attaching a screen shot of the message. The irony. It is nothing but profanity. And yet somehow I was supposed to fight for that team? I was the one who is bad for leaving the game turn 15? Have I ever called this person names like this? No. I post this to show just how toxic some of the games can become. And as somebody who had supported me now suggests, I don't think me leaving was me losing control of my emotions. Again, I have not responded in kind by name calling. Others call names, others tell me I'm not wanted on the team, I left. That's about the most professional way to deal with it. How is leaving a game a lack of emotional control, but then using language like what I show you good emotional control?

"although I was a bit disappointed it seems as though even he (b2) has caved a bit to the toxic crowd"

I literally have no idea what ur talking about bro

"And as you have to deal with all of the insults, you are put into a position of having to defend yourself by pointing out somebody else made an error, not because you care to get into all that, but trying to point out maybe the weak link was Italy which lost a transport ship and went to suicide in the Alps."

Ooohhhh that might've been me. But I didn't suicide I rushed and wg suicided on me. get it right.

I wasnt implying any person in particular when i wrote about italy losing a transport. I was making an abstract point. As i mentioned, it isnt that i enjoy having to identify an error. It is done so in self defense as people are name calling. And i used that as an example.

Just don't play shitty artificial escenarios that need to be played in a very particular way.

I would agree. Toxicity is a problem on AtWar but hampering free speech is not the solution. These games attract a libertarian and right wing base that play it that are extremly defensive of freedom of speech. I know many players that have quit playing over censorship which already is extremly lax compared to other games. I think that the old community however must accept noob players and new blood that are r6-r8 as without them it will just get smaller and smaller until no one can play the game anymore. People that ban people for playing terribly however are a problem as well. I have failed many times, I have seen people fail many times, it happens. And if you do not play you can not learn to play and no one wants to risk someone playing a nation/side they dont know how to play. Good topic I hope everyone can become a little nicer and open.

Since when we all turned so snowflake... I remember back in the days when AtWar was way more active there was way more "toxicity" in forums and chats. The only difference was that it would end up to a cw or a duel and get "solved" while we the rest spectated and heated the fire more. It was actually funny and even the 2 ones that were arguing would laugh in the end from the chat. Kinda what tengri does today when someone is fighting by memeing one if not both who are involved.

AtWar has always been like that. It's weird that you didn't notice it until rank 10

Welcome to the internet, a toxic wasteland of abandoned servers and angry broken people.

Kirjoittanut Croat, 08.10.2020 at 16:45

Modlife summarized:
If you take an action against player: 'NOO, DO YOU KNOW HOW SMALL THIS COMMUNITY IS, OMG WHY YOU PUNISHED HIM?? ATWAR WILL DIE'
If you don't take an action against player: 'ATWAR IS FILLED WITH TOO TOXIC PEOPLE, I DONT KNOW WHAT ARE MODS DOING?! ATWAR WILL DIE'

Back on topic,
yea, I gotta agree, there are certain individuals who just enjoy causing troubles. Just use report button, it won't be ignored, at least from my side

no one asks for people to be banned, why would you ban people on a dying community like atwar for being toxic

Also agreed, too many people ban for the stupidest reasons

Kirjoittanut Fatcheek, 17.10.2020 at 17:15

why would you ban people on a dying community like atwar for being toxic

I will give you a metaphorical example:
Germany has 88 million of inhabitants. Many people are coming to Germany seeking for better luck. Police is allowed to enforce the law to anyone, domestic people and newcomers, both.
Does that mean, if Croatia has only 4.5 million of inhabitants and people are going out to other countries seeking for a better luck, that Croatian police shouldn't be allowed to enforce the law, just because we have only 4.5 inhabitants and they're leaving because of various reasons?
That laws and rules in Croatia have 0 value?
That people in Croatia should behave like animals?

No. And same goes for atWar.
I would rather see 100 normal guys around, than 10 000 spoiled kids whose only strenght is toxicity behind alter egos on virtual game and who will cause a repellention to the further atWar's newcomers.

Kirjoittanut Croat, 18.10.2020 at 16:21

Kirjoittanut Fatcheek, 17.10.2020 at 17:15

why would you ban people on a dying community like atwar for being toxic

I will give you a metaphorical example:
Germany has 88 million of inhabitants. Many people are coming to Germany seeking for better luck. Police is allowed to enforce the law to anyone, domestic people and newcomers, both.
Does that mean, if Croatia has only 4.5 million of inhabitants and people are going out to other countries seeking for a better luck, that Croatian police shouldn't be allowed to enforce the law, just because we have only 4.5 inhabitants and they're leaving because of various reasons?
That laws and rules in Croatia have 0 value?
That people in Croatia should behave like animals?

No. And same goes for atWar.
I would rather see 100 normal guys around, than 10 000 spoiled kids whose only strenght is toxicity behind alter egos on virtual game and who will cause a repellention to the further atWar's newcomers.

i mean fully ban from in-game, and the only reason for banning someone fully from a game is if they constantly leave t1. I've been banned from peoples games since I kicked the host from a previous game, or they just don't like me playing

Kirjoittanut Fatcheek, 18.10.2020 at 16:34

i mean fully ban from in-game, and the only reason for banning someone fully from a game is if they constantly leave t1. I've been banned from peoples games since I kicked the host from a previous game, or they just don't like me playing

Sorry, thought you're talking about moderator banning.

As about player's ban from games, everything is clearly written in banlist rules which you can read here ---> https://hr.atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=44642

And no, being any kind of toxic or posting any kind of insults (racist, religious, personal) is NOT a valid reason to ban player from game/map.
It's material for moderators, not the material for mapmakers/players revenge to another player.

So, let me publically say to everyone:
If any of you guys is banned from certain game/map due to toxicity or insults, you can make a balist appeal and Mods will remove your ban from that game/map.
On the other side, you may face the consequences by mods for your behaviour, but you cannot be banned from any map by player or mapmaker.

Learn to apply rules first mods. No police puts you in jail for insult. I don't see any long term mutes anymore.... At the end of the day breaking rules in chat should be punished in chat.

I would be rocket scientist if i could read such a long post

I thought this person was just joking by being offended by toxic people (i.e., life)... that's just how things go, right? But clearly he spent enough time on this post for me to suspect that maybe he actually can't stand emotionally, perhaps physically, life. Life. That's what he is describing here. Toxic? This post is freaking toxic if you ask me! If you can't handle the heat on atWar then I would generally think there are other problems of greater concern. When the going get tough, the tough get going, right?

And the reason we are mean to you when you're Serbia is to help you improve, so don't trash on the people who are helping you

In general, I think that if the game says that r5 can play, than any r5 can play. He should not be kicked for a higher ranked player or be harped on for mistakes that could cost the game. This game is one where experience alone can ultimately improve the player. If this followed rigorously, I am sure that lower ranks will be more inclined to stay and eventually become a force that can actually handle those scenarios.

Kirjoittanut Croat, 18.10.2020 at 16:21

Kirjoittanut Fatcheek, 17.10.2020 at 17:15

why would you ban people on a dying community like atwar for being toxic

I will give you a metaphorical example:
Germany has 88 million of inhabitants. Many people are coming to Germany seeking for better luck. Police is allowed to enforce the law to anyone, domestic people and newcomers, both.
Does that mean, if Croatia has only 4.5 million of inhabitants and people are going out to other countries seeking for a better luck, that Croatian police shouldn't be allowed to enforce the law, just because we have only 4.5 inhabitants and they're leaving because of various reasons?
That laws and rules in Croatia have 0 value?
That people in Croatia should behave like animals?

No. And same goes for atWar.
I would rather see 100 normal guys around, than 10 000 spoiled kids whose only strenght is toxicity behind alter egos on virtual game and who will cause a repellention to the further atWar's newcomers.

Wtf is this bad comparison lol. Is there a law prohibiting Croatians from moving out of Croatia? In any case, if you want the brightest brains to stay in Croatia, make life better in Croatia. I.e. better living circumstances, higher salary, lower cost of living, health, diploma value etc. Unless Croatia is a dictatorship and prohibits travel, just like for example NORTH KOREA. Then however the police is allowed to prohibit anyone from moving out.

Kirjoittanut Tribune Aquila, 18.10.2020 at 19:51

I thought this person was just joking by being offended by toxic people (i.e., life)... that's just how things go, right? But clearly he spent enough time on this post for me to suspect that maybe he actually can't stand emotionally, perhaps physically, life. Life. That's what he is describing here. Toxic? This post is freaking toxic if you ask me! If you can't handle the heat on atWar then I would generally think there are other problems of greater concern. When the going get tough, the tough get going, right?

And the reason we are mean to you when you're Serbia is to help you improve, so don't trash on the people who are helping you

I find it breathtaking that the same person who has created an entire army (a clan full) of alts, who has used them to play all sides in team games in order to rig outcomes in order to feel good about "victories" on an online game would even attempt to lecture anybody else about taking things too seriously. It's entirely within the realm of possibility for somebody to note a person's behavior while at the same time not letting it hurt their feelings. Don't think for a moment anybody on At War has hurt my feelings. Just because I might recognize somebody for the asshole they are doesn't mean my feelings are hurt. And if you've read my earlier posts, I don't even advocate censorship. I can oppose a person's behavior and not want to even play in a game with somebody because they have made the game so toxic, yet not having my day ruined and not favor banning that person altogether. People have the right to be assholes. Just like I have the right to notice. Perhaps since Sean takes At War so seriously he assumes that anybody who observes somebody's bad behavior has let that ruin their day. No. We don't all live and breathe online games, Sean.