Laochra

Why

Wheres the vacuum cleaner kid ? this is up for too long

Bla I'll respond to this when I get more time. Might be tomorrow.

Kirjoittanut Davy Jones, 24.07.2019 at 04:20

Why

Send a private request as per guidelines...

[see ==> Rules => Guideline => Transparency

"You may request a particular issue be publicized for transparency, but this request must be made privately first, as there are likely details of the issue of which you are not aware."]


However the short version in general terms is, when a player creates an alt account to circumvent a mod action, a ban is applied. It's standard protocol.

Kirjoittanut Sid, 24.07.2019 at 15:01

Bla I'll respond to this when I get more time. Might be tomorrow.

Its been 2 days sid wheres the respond? WHERE IS IT?

Here is a very brief run through of my history with lao and why he was banned. It's told with only my perspective and missing a lot of details so please keep that in mind. When discussing anything on this forum topic, keep in mind that it's ok to talk about the subject but it's NOT ok to harass the mods/admins/players responding to it. Be civil or this topic will be locked.

Kirjoittanut Sid, 25.07.2019 at 21:38

Here is a very brief run through of my history with lao and why he was banned. It's told with only my perspective and missing a lot of details so please keep that in mind. When discussing anything on this forum topic, keep in mind that it's ok to talk about the subject but it's NOT ok to harass the mods/admins/players responding to it. Be civil or this topic will be locked.

There's a powerful emotional dynamic at play. The language you used and the way you approached Laochra was, first of all, not productive. Second of all, it obviously instigated him. He has been discrimnated against his entire life. Through no fault of his own, Laochra has assumed a very disadvantaged position in life. And as soon as you consider this, as soon as you consider the social pathology behind the inner-city culture and the way it is systemically prevented him from becoming income mobile and climbing the social ladder, as soon as you consider this, I think you will develop a much greater sympathy for him. Single motherhood rates are unbelievably high where he was brought up, he never had a true father figure to show him what was right and wrong. At least consider these important factors before reaching these hasty conclusions about him and his motives in creating those "alts," which was really just a way for him to better connect with his community.

Laochra has the pathology to do something bad, and the capacity to do something good. Give him another chance. I vouch for him, and I think many others will, too.

Kirjoittanut Dave, 22.07.2019 at 22:58

On a serious note, I'd like to add that Laochra was devoted to this community, he was devoted to its survival; through thick and thin, he was devoted.

Relationships within the administrative community should not have influenced his position as a moderator. What matters is one's relationship with the community at large. We loved him, not because he is particularly attractive or good at this game, but because he did not subtract from this community, he added to it. To all mods, admins, and supporters reading this, please understand that the well being of this community hinges on your ability to include players, not exclude them. Bans, mutes—these measures are important, but when they go to the point of infringing on one's devotion and love for the game, these measures are no longer productive. Indeed, bans mostly produce results contrary to their intended purpose.

Empathize with Laochra for one second. How would it feel if an entire authoritative body suppresses every word you say, curtails every action you make, and severs the bonds that you've forged over the years with friends and acquaintances throughout this community. I don't know Clovis, I've never spoke with Clovis in my entire life; I don't know Dave, I've barely spoke with Dave outside of these forums, but as far as I know, whatever the root of this animosity may be, Laochra deserves to receive an ultimatum: accept a temporary ban, create no more alts, and you will be allowed to rejoin AtWar.

If Laochra is as devoted to this game as I believe he is, he will accept these terms. Do not blame him for his actions in recent weeks, you cannot blame him for feeling somewhat emotional about being ostracized from a community that he has devoted so many years to.

Its impossible to take sean seriously when he talks seriously like that.

Just to be clear I want to explain how the sequence of events unfolded with Laochra (starting from my time here):

1) March 23, 2019 -- I applied a total forum and chat mute on Laochra. Some people might think that was too harsh, and that could certainly be debated. But after 3-4 months or however long it had been at that point, I simply had enough of his attitude towards me and also the trouble he was trying to stir up in the community in general.

Later the same day Clovis relaxed the mute so Laochra could still talk in game and clan chat. Kind of ironic since it was Laochra's attempts to get Clovis demoted (and my refusal to do so) that were undoubtedly one of the sources of the friction between us.

2) May 7, 2019 -- Laochra requested that his account be administratively deleted. He said he tried deleting it himself but unknown players kept bringing it back against his wishes. Here is his request:



So, according to his wishes, I deleted Laochra's account.

3) May 5, 2019 through July 9, 2019 -- before he even requested for his main account to be deleted, he had already made an alt Laochra2. From May 5 through July 9, he posted in the forums 24 times from this account, in defiance of his forum mute. As an ex-moderator, he knows this is against the rules and grounds for being banned. We were extremely patient with him, but after 2 months of evading the mute on his main we finally had to ban his alt.

4) With his main account deleted (at his request) and his alt now banned, he creates more alts and sends a bunch of nasty PMs, saying we can't stop him and threatening to go full on "bugsbunny mode". He launches a spam bot attack on the forums, and he teams up with xbugs to hack the mod forums (according to screenshots we have from xbugs, he admitted that Laochra gave him the information he needed to hack the mod forum.)

5) At the same time all this is happening, during the first week of July hdrakon arranged for Laochra and myself to mediate our dispute with Brianwl as the mediator. I was told that Laochra had changed his mind and wanted his main account restored. I said I was willing to do that as long as the original mute stayed in place. If Laochra had offered an apology I was willing to even lift the mute, however the mediation failed because it would be a cold day in hell before Laochra ever apologized for anything.

6) Finally, Laochra decided to embark on a spam campaign posting the same message in the forum every day from a different alt. At this point we applied the IP ban, since basically he left us no other option.

In summary, we gave Laochra numerous chances along the way to change his behavior, or at the very least keep quiet and continue playing the game. Not only was he unable to do this, he couldn't help but dig a bigger grave for himself. He pushed all of us until we had no choice but to act.

Now, at the risk of giving him more attention than he deserves, I'm un-archiving this last spam post and moving it into this forum for all to see. Here: https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=41723

I'm really tempted to post a reply of my own and refute his nonsense... I have my own collection of screenshots that would paint a very different picture of Laochra from the saint he tries to make himself out to be. However I think he makes my argument pretty well all on his own... his egoistic attitude is on such full display, I don't think any further proof is necessary. And, frankly, I've wasted too much time on this issue already. I would rather get back to work.

Just wanted to note in case anyone's interested hearing Lao's point of view from himself. As Dave said, his thread was made public and is now available here: https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=41723. You might also find Lao on Discord.

This is all stupid imo, Dave just got triggered by some random spud on the Internet and made a big fuss about it, and now the game is more cringey and "Toxic" than it was before Dave came along.

+

This is all stupid, A spud just got triggered by some new changes on an Internet browser game and made a big fuss about it, and now the game is more cringey and "Toxic" than it was before Dave came along...

Dave, (quote didn't work)

As I may understand your response and agree on it for some parts, it still feels to me that you're still not fully getting what point most of us are trying to make.

You start at March 23, 2019, with 1/2 sentences, and explain everything that went on from that point, but most people here are not agreeing with the mutes and forum bans to begin with. Since at that time you were basically perma banning/muting players that annoyed you left and right (blunt ik), a few of them were very active players, and some of them even contributed to this game.

Laochra was, some may disagree, a very liked player within this community and a succesful (ex-)moderator on this game, he has contributed his time, energy and devotion to this game for years, and for people like Sid or Clovis to now shit on his whole ''legacy'' or existance on this game, whilst he can't even deffend himself, is just a complete slap in the face.

Between March 23 and May 7, alot has happened. I've personaly talked with both you and Laochra for numerous of times, asking for both of you to make amends. You at some point said that you even felt that you went to harsh on him and could've gone for a softer approach, this was a few days after March 23, so I thought you'd might have cooled down for a bit. After a while I had a talk with Laochra about arbitration/mediation, i'd say that i'd meddle between the two of you and you two should've work things out, since both of you honestly care about the game but unfortunately are to proud. Laochra at first was not up for it, he said you'd probably wouldn't think that you we're in the wrong, I explained to him that I had a conversation with you and that he should atleast give it a try for the sake of the game. After my 10/10 persuasion skills, I got Laochra on board for the arbitration/mediation, and at April 10, I sent you the invite to make amends with Laochra. At April 11 you kind of refused the mediation/arbitration saying that you'd see no point in arbitration and that there was nothing to sort out:

Note that this was all before alts or public threads we're made, so I am kinda surprised to see that the blame is put on Laochra for not trying to work things out between the two of you.

From this point on everything actually had gotten worse. Like you said, he went on an alts and tried to deffend himself and for that he broke the rule: that thou shalt not dodge the forum mute/bans by creating alts. Though im sure most of us can probably sympathize with the people that create alts and try to deffend themselves in situations like these, since the whole justice system (lol) on this game, in situations like these, is kind of an one way street, where the 'victim' has no leg to stand on, since he's either fully muted or banned and if he even tries to make his case on alts (because he can't do that on his main acc) his mute or ban gets extended. Thats why the recent forumupdate of the rule Nero and brianwl made is a good thing, though unfortunately almost a decade overdue.

About the other alleged alts that trolled, I spoke with Clovis about it, and he assured me it was Laochra 100%, I had my doubts about it and told him he probably assumed wrong, since Laochra2 (Lao's real alt) and the other (fake alts: Laochra5 etc.) didn't match at all, not one single thing, not even the trolling, it was just an imposter (most of us know who) that just trolled, same thing happened with the Unleashed situation, where numerous of people were acting as if they were Unleashed's alt.

Short story:
I honestly think, and it seems alot of others do as well, that you went too harsh with the permanently bans and mutes on Laochra, on top of that I personaly think you wrongfully just completely wiped all his history from the game, including his shitton of contributions, expansions, gameplay, mechanics etc, which Clovis seems to think, he said this in another thread, were not even that valuable to the game, which in my opinion basically shows the whole rivarly-relationship between Clovis and Laochra in the first place. Unfortunately its very convenient to either one of you that Laochra's whole history is gone, so none of us can even make conclusions ourselves, instead of that we have to trust on just someone's words or point of views, which basically makes this whole forum useless if the person in question can't even deffend himself. Therefore I honestly think wiping of someone's whole existance and contribution of this game is a line that should never be crossed.

I agree with the fact Laochra eventually dug his own grave by making these decisions after numerous of people have told him to drop it and therefore I understand the punishments for it, though I have to agree with Jugers that he wouldn't have made these decisions in the first place if these out of order punishments didn't create the domino-effect we're currently facing. And I also agree with Laochra (https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=41723) that all of this doesn't really set a great precedent for the rest of community.

Kirjoittanut DeepFriedUnicorn, 26.07.2019 at 07:05

This is all stupid imo, Dave just got triggered by some random spud on the Internet and made a big fuss about it, and now the game is more cringey and "Toxic" than it was before Dave came along.

Side note, there are too many mods, please unrank them.

I personally believe that Dave let his personal bias take hold of this situation a little. To clarify, I hold no beef against Dave or any of the mods, but I believe that Laochra was too good a person for this to happen to him. Of course you only emphasize the parts that make Lao seem bad to support your claim, but what would you do if you were backed up against a wall with everyone in power harassing you? The fact that the majority of the community supports Lao in this situation is something that should be taken into account. Even some mods supported Lao. Dave, the only people you're getting support from in this situation are the people that have wanted Lao gone from the start. They don't care about him at all, while we, the community, do. It's obvious that you're clinging on to every little detail said by everyone that could harm Lao, but completely ignoring what we're really saying. Put yourself in his shoes. He's had no other choice, he's helped this game so much in many different ways, just give him a chance.

The whole reason this situation started was because of you not taking into account what Lao was trying to help with. He obviously got annoyed, as I'm sure you would have as well. Thus, the situation escalated, and here we are. Let's say in an alternate timeline Lao is the one who bought atWar and you were a mod, I'm almost positively sure this same thing would happen, with you in Lao's spot. Both of your personalities are counters to each other, you just have to accept that.

Sorry for the rant, and remember that I have no beef against any of you, this is just my personal opinion.

Good day.

Kirjoittanut Praedyth, 26.07.2019 at 09:59

The fact that the majority of the community supports Lao in this situation is something that should be taken into account.

I'm hesitated to add to this drama but wanted to address this quickly. Before being an admin I used to believe that "the majority" means forum posts and threads with upvotes. I was wrong. Turns out most of our players don't even actively use public forums and to be brutally honest much less of them cares about this situation in particular.

There's no one in a better position to determine what "the majority" wants other than Dave, who receives hundreds of messages from all sort of people. We (including myself) are just not privy of all the conversations he's been into. Of course, everybody's opinion is welcome, but don't be surprised if your statement turns out to be just some noisy individuals spamming forums with posts like these. In fact, this thread is a clear example of two posts (each with 4 upvotes) claiming that the game became more toxic, yet our survey (https://atwar-game.com/news/news.php?news_id=242) proves otherwise.

You can be dead sure that Dave considered all the opinion that he got on this topic, and took a decision for the betterment of the game.

Kirjoittanut Waffel, 26.07.2019 at 09:04

I think you misunderstood what I was saying in my PM. When I asked you "what is there to arbitrate?", I was not saying "no" to your mediation. I was literally asking you exactly what my question says. I was asking you to give me some reason why I should invest my time in it. I never heard back from you.

So I guess you took my question as a "no", but I was really asking the question.

Kirjoittanut Praedyth, 26.07.2019 at 09:59

I personally believe that Dave let his personal bias take hold of this situation a little. To clarify, I hold no beef against Dave or any of the mods, but I believe that Laochra was too good a person for this to happen to him. Of course you only emphasize the parts that make Lao seem bad to support your claim, but what would you do if you were backed up against a wall with everyone in power harassing you? The fact that the majority of the community supports Lao in this situation is something that should be taken into account. Even some mods supported Lao. Dave, the only people you're getting support from in this situation are the people that have wanted Lao gone from the start. They don't care about him at all, while we, the community, do. It's obvious that you're clinging on to every little detail said by everyone that could harm Lao, but completely ignoring what we're really saying. Put yourself in his shoes. He's had no other choice, he's helped this game so much in many different ways, just give him a chance.

The whole reason this situation started was because of you not taking into account what Lao was trying to help with. He obviously got annoyed, as I'm sure you would have as well. Thus, the situation escalated, and here we are. Let's say in an alternate timeline Lao is the one who bought atWar and you were a mod, I'm almost positively sure this same thing would happen, with you in Lao's spot. Both of your personalities are counters to each other, you just have to accept that.

Sorry for the rant, and remember that I have no beef against any of you, this is just my personal opinion.

Good day.

I don't agree that he "had no other choice". He had a choice. He could have chosen to make his case to me with logical arguments, persuading me toward his point of view. Instead, he chose to attack me personally.

In that alternative timeline you mentioned, where our roles were reversed, I would not expect the new owner to follow my advice or else. He doesn't know me, and he doesn't owe me anything. If I want someone in power to listen to me, I would know that I need to build a relationship with that person first. I would not throw a temper tantrum just because I offered advice and it wasn't taken.

Anyway I appreciate you sharing your opinion, even if I don't completely agree with it.

So glad i missed Great Mauzer Strike, and this drama. You'd be surprised how much energy and nerves you save by actually playing the game, avoiding forum dungeons.

Return of the King and 2nd Punic War is fixed, Witch-Doctor also made new WW2 map, it is really good and different. Currently i'm testing Columna's maps, they are actually really good, you should try it, we can have lots of fun.

Guys just a reminder to keep the thread on-topic and not turn this into a jokememe thread since I know for some people it is important. These posts are not constructive so I've removed them:

Lainaa:

what work ? u did nothing except banning people fixing few bugs and promoting 9999999 supporters maybe u should work a bit more same thing for clovis

Lainaa:

This is all stupid, A spud just got triggered by some new changes on an Internet browser game and made a big fuss about it, and now the game is more cringey and "Toxic" than it was before Dave came along...

Honestly, who cares. Laochra got banned. His fault he pissed off the people that own this game. Can we stop talking about this already. Who cares what 'the people" have to say. Seeing all this drama and no duels or CWS is really annoying. No one CARES in the real world. 95% of atwar players are here to play the game. The very small majority are the ones with the loudest mouths that are saying anything but its still a very small percentage of this game. No one really cares that much.

I will say it again no one CARES. Leave Laochra in the past already.

Moved to appropriate thread==>

Kirjoittanut Cold Case, 25.07.2019 at 14:56

Dave and Laochra had a conflict. Dave told Laochra to stop and he didn't.

I've said it before, they are both strong characters and especially Laochra can have enormous ego. I don't remember for what reason really, but those two would argue a lot. Dave tried to put an end to it but Laochra continued. Laochra received a harsh punishment on which I don't agree, but instead of forgetting it, he made it worse. You know who else made it worse? All of you who for some reason act like Laochra was a god.

Anyways, my post is valid, all punishments are fair and square.

PS: Anyone can correct me if I'm saying anything wrong.

Moved to appropriate thread==>

Kirjoittanut JUGERS2, 25.07.2019 at 16:34

Kirjoittanut Cold Case, 25.07.2019 at 14:56

Kirjoittanut ASmallLemming, 25.07.2019 at 14:49

Kirjoittanut Cold Case, 25.07.2019 at 12:20

Anyways, point is nobody is ever punished unfairly, and if that's the case it will always be resolved.

Yeah, Laochra is not punished unfairly. IP ban + user agent ban on someone who has supported the community for 5 years and has also been part of the moderator team. Legit the same treatment Unleashed receives. Just get out, nobody wants to hear this shit

Dave and Laochra had a conflict. Dave told Laochra to stop and he didn't.

I've said it before, they are both strong characters and especially Laochra can have enormous ego. I don't remember for what reason really, but those two would argue a lot. Dave tried to put an end to it but Laochra continued. Laochra received a harsh punishment on which I don't agree, but instead of forgetting it, he made it worse. You know who else made it worse? All of you who for some reason act like Laochra was a god.

Anyways, my post is valid, all punishments are fair and square.

PS: Anyone can correct me if I'm saying anything wrong.

I bet Lao didnt agree with it too. I bet he tried to come back and proove it was to harsh. I bet by him making alts his punishment got worse and worse. In the end it all comes down to the first punishment being wrong and it caused a domino affect. Anyway Lao thinked he was this game genius and ruled it but in reality he was a simple player. Not here to protect him, he got karma, but i am 100% he didnt deserve the first punishment to be so harsh.

You just canceled your comment with your own words. Laochra punishment wasnt fair.