New upgrades too unfair for non-premiums?

Kirjoittanut International, 29.03.2016 at 09:42

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 29.03.2016 at 08:46

How about we give players MORE incentive to buy premium. You could always give premium units all +1HP on top of the general's advantage, or set the general to affect ALL forces instead of just the stack, so as long as he lives you get the boost. I mean, there's a world of possibilities the other way that we can ask for, but how often do you see us premium players bitching about wanting more for our money? Maybe if we gave premium more of an advantage, people would be inclined to buy it.

That would, in short, make this game even more pay-to-win than it already is. That in itself, of course, wouldn't be a bad thing. Plenty of games thrive on a pay-to-win system, after all. But that would make this game's advertisements a bit misleading.

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 29.03.2016 at 08:46

Ultimately, those of us who paid expect what we paid for, and the Dev team has been amazing in delivering. Stop asking them not to do stuff for those of us loyal enough to pay for a quality product, return some scrap metal, get your $40 and never worry about not having the awesome stuff they do for us again .

For some people, $40 is a significant investment, and certainly a lot more money than can be reasonably asked for in an online game. I have absolutely no intention of skipping lunch for three weeks just for AtWar Premium, thank you very much.

As I said, I have absolutely nothing against Premium players being given bonuses - even significant bonuses. Plenty of games do that, and they're running fine. I merely insist that now that Premium players are being given even more bonuses then they already have, that the AtWar administrators start being honest and stop advertising this game as "not pay-to-win."

Kirjoittanut Viruslegion, 28.03.2016 at 20:17

-snip-

I would argue it's just a tipping point thing. +1 reinforcement is a truly tiny bonus, but when you stack that on top of everything else premium players already get (Desert Storm is a really big one), then it's a bit ridiculous.

It's 1 unit.................................................................................................................................................................................... You kill it, it's dead, advantage gone.... other than strats.
the other upgrades are all better, granted we all have access to them, they're still pretty much all better than the general upgrade.

Kirjoittanut clovis1122, 29.03.2016 at 09:41

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 29.03.2016 at 09:36

I'm making a point to the non paid players that we don't get much more than them compared to some of the other F2P games out there, and most of us don't ask for more, even though we're well within our rights to.

Nobody here is talking about how much Pay2Win the game is compared to other games.

It could even be a single exclusive upgrade available for protocoins, and we'd still say that the game is pay to win.

I understand that, I'm attacking the fallacy of that kind of thinking. If we got nothing for paying, nobody would pay, we wouldn't have an atwar, how would they fund the upkeep of the servers? I lose to free players all the time, I paid the money, I still die. proof of concept, game is not pay 2 win.

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 29.03.2016 at 09:47

It's 1 unit.................................................................................................................................................................................... You kill it, it's dead, advantage gone.... other than strats.
the other upgrades are all better, granted we all have access to them, they're still pretty much all better than the general upgrade.

If you read my post, you would see that I indeed understand all that. I'm just saying, even that tiny bonus looks like too much when it's stacked on top of everything else.

Kirjoittanut International, 29.03.2016 at 09:54

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 29.03.2016 at 09:47

It's 1 unit.................................................................................................................................................................................... You kill it, it's dead, advantage gone.... other than strats.
the other upgrades are all better, granted we all have access to them, they're still pretty much all better than the general upgrade.

If you read my post, you would see that I indeed understand all that. I'm just saying, even that tiny bonus looks like too much when it's stacked on top of everything else.

Sorry, I missed it, my point is that even though it may look like a lot to free players, but ultimately it's really not as big of an advantage as the strats, with or without the general. AND you still need to get halfway through rank 10 to max out upgrades including general upgrades.

Only gen is op , we paid for that can't we get a reward for hosting maps for you ? :')

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 29.03.2016 at 09:36

Kirjoittanut Darth., 29.03.2016 at 09:05

Kirjoittanut Sun Tsu, 29.03.2016 at 09:04

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 29.03.2016 at 08:46

Kirjoittanut Sun Tsu, 29.03.2016 at 08:21

Kirjoittanut clovis1122, 29.03.2016 at 08:11

Kirjoittanut Sun Tsu, 29.03.2016 at 07:50

Ivan and Amok would probably be kind enough to remove the general, as an option in games,therfore that would cancel the argument anyway.

I support this. A lot better would'be to give it for free in order to keep the strategical element of having an unit capable of boosting your stacks of troops.

Kirjoittanut Sun Tsu, 29.03.2016 at 04:29

If players enjoy the game so much, there should be some form of expense to play the game competitive.

I agree with this as long as it doesn't involves an advantage of any kind.

I'm afraid I cant agree with the rest of your statements. But I'd really like to see general either as an option or available for free.

Our features for premium are already scarce enough, I would be happy to propose the premium option to remove the general, from particular games.

We could always raise the drop rates of rare units,or expand the gap between low medium and high. If people are lobbying to remove the little bit of advantage that we paid for, I'll throw this out there as food for thought. How about we give players MORE incentive to buy premium. You could always give premium units all +1HP on top of the general's advantage, or set the general to affect ALL forces instead of just the stack, so as long as he lives you get the boost. I mean, there's a world of possibilities the other way that we can ask for, but how often do you see us premium players bitching about wanting more for our money? Maybe if we gave premium more of an advantage, people would be inclined to buy it.

Ultimately, those of us who paid expect what we paid for, and the Dev team has been amazing in delivering. Stop asking them not to do stuff for those of us loyal enough to pay for a quality product, return some scrap metal, get your $40 and never worry about not having the awesome stuff they do for us again .

Or just make it pay to play and be done with it.

Exactly! This statement contradicts with what he posted before.

I think you missed the point of my statement Darth. I like the way it is now, I don't want to change anything, they gave us one thing and people are throwing a fit because we got something they didn't. It's not even that good of an upgrade, it's 1 unit on the entire board, that you could just kill and be done with the advantage. we got a single general upgrade out of 6 of them, it's really not a big deal, I don't understand what everyone is up in arms about. It's a nice cookie for us that personally I'm happy with. My statement about pushing for more was simply to make a point to the people complaining about the new general upgrade. The statement about expanding the gap between low medium and high is a serious proposal, just because it would be fun as hell to have rare units shit out on every city takeover, it would add a new game mode, I don't think there's a huge difference between low medium and high, if I were speaking from a developmental standpoint I'd say make high the new medium, get rid of medium's old rate, leave low as is, and make high between 75% and 90%. Or have high a higher rate in between and add an extreme setting for those numbers lol. They could also change it from a 3 variable setting to a pure percentage variable input, not sure if the framework of the code allows for something like that to be done, as far as changing a dropdown 4 to a number box, but I don't know how this is coded honestly, the only class I ever had was HTML 4.01 14 years ago when I was a freshmen in college lol. I had a couple of geocities websites in the 90s for AoL Chat RP guilds I ran in the 90s/2000s, but my knowledge is purely 4.01 and I have no idea if something like that could be changed in 5. Anyhow, I'm a little stoned, back to my original point, I don't think the gap should be widened, I like it the way it is, and I don't think the developers upset the balance with the nice little treat they gave the paid members in the upgrade. Personally the ability to create maps and play other players created maps was enough for me to buy it. I really wasn't driven by the general at all to be honest, it's a nice bonus, but it's a vulnerable unit and it's the only real advantage other than a couple of fun strats whose value I had no clue of at the time of purchase. I think that free players should be able to make 20 player games too, but limiting them to 10 player games is a good way to push them to get the premium without taking any real game value away from them, like starting income settings or something lol. Personally if I was asked to critique the job of the admins, I'd say they've created a masterpiece, and have been ever vigilant in keeping it balanced and fair to everyone. They listen to us, they make changes based on what we ask for and how we react to the changes they make,, and they consider the opinions of everyone, premium or not.


TL;DR-I'm not bitching when I say that, I'm making a point to the non paid players that we don't get much more than them compared to some of the other F2P games out there, and most of us don't ask for more, even though we're well within our rights to.

bought premium mostly for the map editor, and scenario creation too great minds think alike
The General is useful, and is bit OP, but a good; incentive-to-buy-premium type OP.
I've never gotten a rare unit ever. Not as a non-premiums, and not as a premium either. So yes, I agree that chance of rare should be given a slight boost, but not as much as 75%
And, if there were no advantages/perks to being premium, there'd be no point in spending 40$ for no reason.
I can't wait for map editor

If you want fair play vs premiums, simple.
As for no upgrade duel or ask the competitive prem player to suicide their general.

A lot of them will take you up on that offer and show that their skill > your whine

Kirjoittanut Sun Tsu, 29.03.2016 at 04:29

Kirjoittanut Viruslegion, 28.03.2016 at 20:17

You are forgetting most scenarios have generals enabled for non premium players also.

you're right I did, that's a good point as well

Who needs upgrades anyway?

Community has deciced.116 saying its op vs 65 in favor of it.

Kirjoittanut Nations, 30.03.2016 at 00:33

Community has deciced.116 saying its op vs 65 in favor of it.

one is the tank crit which is a measely +1 crit and the general reinforcement that give you +1 rein every 4 turn or rein turn.

Kirjoittanut Htin, 30.03.2016 at 01:22

Kirjoittanut Nations, 30.03.2016 at 00:33

Community has deciced.116 saying its op vs 65 in favor of it.

one is the tank crit which is a measely +1 crit and the general reinforcement that give you +1 rein every 4 turn or rein turn.

tank crit should be +2 like inf.

Kirjoittanut Viruslegion, 29.03.2016 at 12:34

Kirjoittanut Sun Tsu, 29.03.2016 at 04:29

Kirjoittanut Viruslegion, 28.03.2016 at 20:17

You are forgetting most scenarios have generals enabled for non premium players also.

you're right I did, that's a good point as well

Your both forgot that non-prem cant buy General upgrades ... Technically they're giving an useless unit for non-prem.

This vote has proven nothing, and I feel sad for the person that wasted their PC to promote this thread.

On atWar you will get a biased opinion majority of the time. Players stating that premium is fair are partly correct, General is not (fact not really an opinion since anything that improves gameplay/gives advantage is unfair). While players stating it is unfair are also wrong since what about making a map, or being able to host games of 20 players (for $40) is unfair? Only thing that is unfair is general, was a simple answer - the vote does not put an end to the speculation since there will always be stubborn people, but the players that actually take a second to comprehend it logically will come to the same conclusion as I have (as have others).

As stated it is a FACT that general gives you an advantage over non-premium players, but that does not conclude that all of premium is unfair.

---

Just because the majority votes that all of premium is unfair, does NOT make them correct, as that is only an opinion.

Kirjoittanut Darkmace, 30.03.2016 at 14:51

This vote has proven nothing, and I feel sad for the person that wasted their PC to promote this thread.

I did, you're welcome.

Kirjoittanut International, 29.03.2016 at 09:42

As I said, I have absolutely nothing against Premium players being given bonuses - even significant bonuses. Plenty of games do that, and they're running fine. I merely insist that now that Premium players are being given even more bonuses then they already have, that the AtWar administrators start being honest and stop advertising this game as "not pay-to-win."

Kirjoittanut ROYAL, 29.03.2016 at 11:13

If you want fair play vs premiums, simple.
As for no upgrade duel or ask the competitive prem player to suicide their general.

A lot of them will take you up on that offer and show that their skill > your whine

This I'll fight without a general any day lol.

Kirjoittanut Darkmace, 30.03.2016 at 14:51

This vote has proven nothing, and I feel sad for the person that wasted their PC to promote this thread.

On atWar you will get a biased opinion majority of the time. Players stating that premium is fair are partly correct, General is not (fact not really an opinion since anything that improves gameplay/gives advantage is unfair). While players stating it is unfair are also wrong since what about making a map, or being able to host games of 20 players (for $40) is unfair? Only thing that is unfair is general, was a simple answer - the vote does not put an end to the speculation since there will always be stubborn people, but the players that actually take a second to comprehend it logically will come to the same conclusion as I have (as have others).

As stated it is a FACT that general gives you an advantage over non-premium players, but that does not conclude that all of premium is unfair.

---

Just because the majority votes that all of premium is unfair, does NOT make them correct, as that is only an opinion.

The general is not THAT op. Does it tip an even match to the side of a premium player, sure? But that's assuming it was an even match to begin with. Pay to win would be if premium players got extra units for every city, or buildable units not available to free players that shit on the normal units. Pay to win implies that the lower level players can beat the higher level players with a little bit of cash. This is not, and based on the admins, will never be that. This is a game where you get a couple of perks for paying, but most of what you get is available for free.

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 31.03.2016 at 09:39

Kirjoittanut Darkmace, 30.03.2016 at 14:51

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Snipped

Agreed. A General affects only a single stack. If it was pay to win, it would have affected all the player's units, and been extremely powerful on its own. Rares don't become common for premiums, nor do non-premiums get reduced attack/defence/HP against premiums. It's pretty fair. Plus, if it was actually pay to win, premium players wouldn't lose at all to non-premiums, but as is seen, they do.

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 31.03.2016 at 09:39

But that's assuming it was an even match to begin with.

It's impossible for that match to be even to being with.

Since Turn 1 by just possessing the movement range you've already got a door open to multiple efficient expansions that are out of the hand for any non-premium player. Taking a few expansions for the 3vs3 metagame for example, you can't stack 52 PD units as UK or rush Rome with 60+ IMP units as Turkey, both on Turn 1, without premium.

By underestimating the power of one single stack you make it look like the type of person who would leave his capital widely open to the enemy. The truth is, that some stacks are more valuable than others.

In fact, you could hit the same place as a player with general with 10 more infantries than him




and still lose.

Kirjoittanut clovis1122, 31.03.2016 at 10:08

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 31.03.2016 at 09:39

But that's assuming it was an even match to begin with.

It's impossible for that match to be even to being with.

Since Turn 1 by just possessing the movement range you've already got a door open to multiple efficient expansions that are out of the hand for any non-premium player. Taking a few expansions for the 3vs3 metagame for example, you can't stack 52 PD units as UK or rush Rome with 60+ IMP units as Turkey, both on Turn 1.

By underestimating the power of one single stack you make it look like the type of person who would leave his capital widely open to the enemy. The truth is, that some stacks are more valuable than others.

In fact, you could hit the same place as a player with general with 10 more units than him




and still lose.

2 air transports to carry 35 units + general?? Either they received a boost, or that's an incredibly efficient use of them lol

Kirjoittanut Darth., 31.03.2016 at 10:12

2 air transports to carry 35 units + general?? Either they received a boost, or that's an incredibly efficient use of them lol

Most of the high ranks threat every stack at their minimal level to construct an adequate stack for the task. When mixing stacks of troops we take note of concepts such as # of units, attacking power and the most important, range left. This way of looking at the game gives us a situation where every unit is useful. If possible we avoid wasting range when taking cities. It increases the efficiency and allow us to perform a great variety of tricks...

Anyway I'll leave the explanation of micromanagement for another time. But are mostly high ranks the ones who knows how to give the 101% of every unit and stack. Most of the rangetricks revolves around the General: Movement upgrade though (which is the most expensive general upgrade for a reason).

We know how to do things.

Kirjoittanut clovis1122, 31.03.2016 at 10:32

Kirjoittanut Darth., 31.03.2016 at 10:12

2 air transports to carry 35 units + general?? Either they received a boost, or that's an incredibly efficient use of them lol

Most of the high ranks threat every stack at their minimal level to construct an adequate stack for the task. When mixing stacks of troops we take note of concepts such as # of units, attacking power and the most important, range left. This way of looking at the game gives us a situation where every unit is useful. If possible we avoid wasting range when taking cities. It increases the efficiency and allow us to perform a great variety of tricks...

Anyway I'll leave the explanation of micromanagement for another time. But are mostly high ranks the ones who knows how to give the 101% of every unit and stack. Most of the rangetricks revolves around the General: Movement upgrade though (which is the most expensive general upgrade for a reason).

I've seen youtube videos. You guys somehow know exactly how much range is left without toggling the range button. They made me feel...inadequate
But joking aside, you guys are seriously good at predicting moves and stuff. Is it just lengthy experience (which I lack), or are there some rules of thumb to know this stuff?

Kirjoittanut Darth., 31.03.2016 at 10:36

But joking aside, you guys are seriously good at predicting moves and stuff. Is it just lengthy experience (which I lack), or are there some rules of thumb to know this stuff?

Both....

Micromanagement and Prioritization are perhaps the two hardest concepts to learn with. They're also the ones to master for the players who plays the game in a competitive manner.

I wrote several examples of gameplays in my guide about defensive and offensive gameplay, in an attempt to teach better the logical thinking of troops... though most of the people says theses concepts can't be learned but by playing game after game....

I'll leave the link in case is useful: http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=22473

But the explanations just concord with what several people have said here: General is definitively important for a player that strives to be competitive.

Kirjoittanut clovis1122, 31.03.2016 at 10:08

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 31.03.2016 at 09:39

But that's assuming it was an even match to begin with.

It's impossible for that match to be even to being with.

Since Turn 1 by just possessing the movement range you've already got a door open to multiple efficient expansions that are out of the hand for any non-premium player. Taking a few expansions for the 3vs3 metagame for example, you can't stack 52 PD units as UK or rush Rome with 60+ IMP units as Turkey, both on Turn 1, without premium.

By underestimating the power of one single stack you make it look like the type of person who would leave his capital widely open to the enemy. The truth is, that some stacks are more valuable than others.

In fact, you could hit the same place as a player with general with 10 more infantries than him




and still lose.

What I meant by "even match is if you both played level 0 guest accounts w/o upgrades or generals, you'd be even. Your are explaining the "slight" advantage I mentioned in the post that comment accompanied.

Why can't we just add some ads onto AtWar so that the devs would get their pay and all the players would have access to the same game features?

Kirjoittanut clovis1122, 31.03.2016 at 10:08

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 31.03.2016 at 09:39

But that's assuming it was an even match to begin with.

It's impossible for that match to be even to being with.

Since Turn 1 by just possessing the movement range you've already got a door open to multiple efficient expansions that are out of the hand for any non-premium player. Taking a few expansions for the 3vs3 metagame for example, you can't stack 52 PD units as UK or rush Rome with 60+ IMP units as Turkey, both on Turn 1, without premium.

By underestimating the power of one single stack you make it look like the type of person who would leave his capital widely open to the enemy. The truth is, that some stacks are more valuable than others.

In fact, you could hit the same place as a player with general with 10 more infantries than him




and still lose.

THAT SS SHOWS NOTHING.
You could be pd,he could be imp.
You could be IF,he could be pd/imp.
You could be lb,and he could be pd/imp.

Kirjoittanut Director Aries, 31.03.2016 at 11:11

What I meant by "even match is if you both played level 0 guest accounts w/o upgrades or generals, you'd be even.

Okay, let's just keep clear that no match can be even between prem and non-prem players.

Kirjoittanut Black Swans, 31.03.2016 at 11:43

THAT SS SHOWS NOTHING.
You could be pd,he could be imp.
You could be IF,he could be pd/imp.
You could be lb,and he could be pd/imp.

Both were PD.

Ask Gogok or Ghost if you think is fake, or do the test.

Kirjoittanut Sultan Hassan, 31.03.2016 at 11:38

Why can't we just add some ads onto AtWar so that the devs would get their pay and all the players would have access to the same game features?

Are you crazy? There are competitions for 50$ worth of protocoins (enough to buy lifetime premium and still have 1001 coins left over) and lifetime premium giveaways. Compete in those. One of the best features of atWar is no ads. Other F2P games have so many ads and videos pop up every few seconds. Can you imagine an ad popping up in the middle of a turn in a 2 min or 3 min game? Watching a video before every game? I bought premium for the map editor mainly. I'd buy premium just to get rid of the freaking ads. I've quit many games cuz the ads got too irritating. I'd hate to have to do that to atWar cuz I'm addicted to it, and I hear rehab is not so good.

Kirjoittanut clovis1122, 31.03.2016 at 10:48

Kirjoittanut Darth., 31.03.2016 at 10:36

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Snipped

I've read that already it was enlightening. Thank you for that, and other guides (particularly the expansion ones you made with Raul).
However atWar and it's mechanics is an easy game to learn. Applying those mechanics and mastering it is much much harder. Kind of like chess (the game not the mod )