If you just act sensibly then you won't ever meet a mod.

14) Do not do anything that interferes with the ability of other users to enjoy playing a game in accordance with its rules, or that materially increases the expense or difficulty of staff in maintaining the game for the enjoyment of all its users.

The problem begins with the inability to pinpoint what constitutes an "interference to other's ability of enjoy playing a game". My ability of enjoying the game was severely hindered by ganking, betraying, latejoining, trolling and even turnblocking. The rule can't be enforced with 100% certainty if we can't pinpoint exactly what defines that interference. The mods can be used to assure where such and such behavior breaks the rule, to point what's the turning point from a player latejoining to enjoy the game to a player latejoining to gimp another one's war efforts.

And the problem with that is that people are inherently flawed, thus no decision is 100% perfect without margin of error. And it's incredibly hard for a mod to be completely unbiased (as naturally is for any human being), and from that may arise claims of mods benefiting certain players or hurting others on purpose. Also, if we leave it all up to someone's interpretation of the rule, we can surely agree sometime or another such interpretation can be bent or swayed to serve ANY purpose.

This is why I don't believe in a rule regulated gameplay, but rules defined by game design, without need of mods to enforce it. Tabletop games need rules to limit and shape gameplay, whereas video games can simply implement those and no player can break them without serious glitching or exploiting bugs. In my opinion: latejoining, betraying, ganking, are all part of the game and if every latejoin was a bannable offense we'd have 3 active players right now.

I propose that we get rid of rule 14 entirely and implement other measures to enforce it instead. First of all, we could have the latejoin week default setting lowered to 3 or 5. Joining on turn 9 is completely and much more game breaking than joining on turn 4 or 5. Second, we could have latejoining players be aproved unanimously by every player in the game, with a message - Player X wants to join the game in country Y. Accept / Do not accept - which I believe would contribute to a less surprisy gameplay, and much better overall, since if one player does not approve then it doesn't happen.

This would SEVERELY lower trolling attempts and improve the gaming experience for ALL players.

I'm not really sure what prompted this, but the rules aren't there for the mods benefit or use; they are there for the players to understand reasons why they might be modded and how to avoid that.

The vast majority of players in the AW community have never been modded. I don't think the issue lies with the rules. If you (generally, not Pulse) feel you are being targeted (or bias towards you) try evaluating your own behavior and see if there isn't something you could do to avoid it. Accepting responsibility goes a long way.

NT:


sry i had to post dis

What prompted this is SRB joining a 4 player, 24 hour turn game with 5 SRB members, and then attempting to exploit the voting system to change the turn duratioon from 24 hours to 1 minute while all the preexisting players were afk, probably sleeping.

There is no problem with rules #14. YOU have a problem with it because it is the one rule that encompasses a lot of areas not clearly defined by the other rules.

Pulsereaction, I am sorely disappointed in this post considering that you were one of the 5 latejoiners and you KNOW that this is inherently wrong. This post is nothing more than an attempt to manipulate staff to change the rules so that your coalition can continue to rape any enjoyment of this game that other players might experience.

Kirjoittanut Guest14502, 17.03.2012 at 20:00

Accepting responsibility goes a long way.

Kirjoittanut notserral, 17.03.2012 at 19:50

14) Do not do anything that interferes with the ability of other users to enjoy playing a game in accordance with its rules, or that materially increases the expense or difficulty of staff in maintaining the game for the enjoyment of all its users.

The problem begins with the inability to pinpoint what constitutes an "interference to other's ability of enjoy playing a game". My ability of enjoying the game was severely hindered by ganking, betraying, latejoining, trolling and even turnblocking. The rule can't be enforced with 100% certainty if we can't pinpoint exactly what defines that interference. The mods can be used to assure where such and such behavior breaks the rule, to point what's the turning point from a player latejoining to enjoy the game to a player latejoining to gimp another one's war efforts.

And the problem with that is that people are inherently flawed, thus no decision is 100% perfect without margin of error. And it's incredibly hard for a mod to be completely unbiased (as naturally is for any human being), and from that may arise claims of mods benefiting certain players or hurting others on purpose. Also, if we leave it all up to someone's interpretation of the rule, we can surely agree sometime or another such interpretation can be bent or swayed to serve ANY purpose.

This is why I don't believe in a rule regulated gameplay, but rules defined by game design, without need of mods to enforce it. Tabletop games need rules to limit and shape gameplay, whereas video games can simply implement those and no player can break them without serious glitching or exploiting bugs. In my opinion: latejoining, betraying, ganking, are all part of the game and if every latejoin was a bannable offense we'd have 3 active players right now.

I propose that we get rid of rule 14 entirely and implement other measures to enforce it instead. First of all, we could have the latejoin week default setting lowered to 3 or 5. Joining on turn 9 is completely and much more game breaking than joining on turn 4 or 5. Second, we could have latejoining players be aproved unanimously by every player in the game, with a message - Player X wants to join the game in country Y. Accept / Do not accept - which I believe would contribute to a less surprisy gameplay, and much better overall, since if one player does not approve then it doesn't happen.

This would SEVERELY lower trolling attempts and improve the gaming experience for ALL players.

I can say that the rules are just put out there, so players can see that there are some rules.
Thing is, i can surely say mods doesn't give a shit for a certain rules.
The only rules they're concern about is "don't put any other text in global chat, but only game advertisement".

There is no written legend of the punishment you get for breaking the certain rule.


So many rules, you don't know what you get for breaking them, even if you break them, there is good chance that in the eyes of the mods no rules has been broken, so you get out with not even a warning, and i know why is this happening.
300 users online at peak times, i wonder what will happen if we start banning around, well then delete the rules.

Put only:
Rule Book

1.) No spamming on global chat. - Punishment, 60 minutes mute.
2.) Flaming, cursing. - Punishment, Warning in PM.

I don't attend to put any screen shots to validate what i wrote here.
But i surely know this is the current punishment system.

In all honesty, R14 is too vague. All it needs is better explanation, examples etc, and it would be fine. And this is a little off-topic, but I still believe the mods weren't chosen very well on account of Community backlash. Some are really cool once you know them, but when it comes down to it, you need someone who's more of a middle-man or someone who's open-minded about things to be mod, as I can recall many player experiences where someone would troll another, and the mod would just mute them both instead.

1: What exactly is your problem? If you just game and be polite towards other players, there is no need to consider any of the rules.
2: The only players that are complaining about the rules, are the players that get muted, warned, kicked and banned the most.
3: 99% of the community has never been modded and doesn't even care about the rules (i didn't care about them when i was a player)
4: Joining a casual game and setting it to 1min is for trolling and trolling only. This was just ment to ruin a players game and i don't understand why this should even be discussed.
5: Mutes, Warnings, Kicks and Bans are not only based upon 'deeds' but also on a players history. More problems, harder punishments, simple is that.

@Atheist's rulebook:

Kirjoittanut T.Atheist, 18.03.2012 at 09:44

The only rules they're concern about is "don't put any other text in global chat, but only game advertisement".

How can you say this when i talked with you about many other incidents and even worked on a bug in your game? You only see us acting on global chat, and that is your agrument to say that we only care about global? Come on ......

Also: A rulebook with punishments is a horrible idea and will only lead to more trollings. If there is only a warning or short mute for spamming, then i just keep spamming because i don't give a ** about warnings.

Kirjoittanut Omnis, 18.03.2012 at 10:07

In all honesty, R14 is too vague. All it needs is better explanation, examples etc, and it would be fine.

If you just be a nice guy and polite towards other players, there is no need for a explenation. Rules are very simple: Behave well and you will never have anything to do with any mod.

You only need a small amount of common sense to obey the rules. Majority of the players have never even read the rules, and yet, they never get any punishments. Players who "study" the rules are usually the players who are trying to find some kind of a "gap" in the rules, so that they can exploit it without being punished.
As I said, if you don't ruin other people's games, farm, insult or troll (stuff you already know it's prohibited without even reading the rules) you will probably never get any punishment.

Kirjoittanut Hugosch, 18.03.2012 at 10:14

Kirjoittanut Omnis, 18.03.2012 at 10:07

In all honesty, R14 is too vague. All it needs is better explanation, examples etc, and it would be fine.

If you just be a nice guy and polite towards other players, there is no need for a explenation. Rules are very simple: Behave we'll and you will never have anything to do with any mod.

That's pretty funny. I'm not going to speak my opinion because I might get banned for it, but i'll respect yours and follow it. (Also, you said "we all" when typing "we'll", it should just be "well" unless your wording was purposely wrong ).

Rule 14 don't need to be removed
Players who get in a game just to spoil the pleasure of others need to be removed

Kirjoittanut Guest, 18.03.2012 at 07:48

Pulsereaction, I am sorely disappointed in this post considering that you were one of the 5 latejoiners and you KNOW that this is inherently wrong. This post is nothing more than an attempt to manipulate staff to change the rules so that your coalition can continue to rape any enjoyment of this game that other players might experience.

Yes, I was one of them, but how is presuming we'd do a bannable offense a bannable offense in itself?

But what happened on that game (and the events subsequently) made me think about it and I really think having a unanimous vote to approve the latejoining of a player would really benefit the community, as it is the most common form of trolling and what pisses the players most. I don't think ganking or betrayal have such a big part in breaking a player's enjoyment as this, as those are much more infrequent and are seen more as a part of the game. And having this implemented would 1) lower monstruously trolling cases and 2) make it harder for "our coalition to continue to rape any enjoyment of this game that other players might experience".

Peace,
Pulse.

Kirjoittanut Hugosch, 18.03.2012 at 10:12

1: What exactly is your problem? If you just game and be polite towards other players, there is no need to consider any of the rules.
2: The only players that are complaining about the rules, are the players that get muted, warned, kicked and banned the most.
3: 99% of the community has never been modded and doesn't even care about the rules (i didn't care about them when i was a player)
4: Joining a casual game and setting it to 1min is for trolling and trolling only. This was just ment to ruin a players game and i don't understand why this should even be discussed.
5: Mutes, Warnings, Kicks and Bans are not only based upon 'deeds' but also on a players history. More problems, harder punishments, simple is that.

@Atheist's rulebook:

Kirjoittanut T.Atheist, 18.03.2012 at 09:44

The only rules they're concern about is "don't put any other text in global chat, but only game advertisement".

How can you say this when i talked with you about many other incidents and even worked on a bug in your game? You only see us acting on global chat, and that is your agrument to say that we only care about global? Come on ......

Also: A rulebook with punishments is a horrible idea and will only lead to more trollings. If there is only a warning or short mute for spamming, then i just keep spamming because i don't give a ** about warnings.

I'm not allowed to get into any discussions about moderator decisions, i have read the rules and the guidelines.
All i can say is that i'm not happy with the actions they took, i admire the mods for their will to find the bugs and get rid of them, it was quite fun working with you on them.
My opinion is that the punishments are to soft, THAT in fact leads to more trolling.
I have never run a browser game, nor i can tell you how to do it.
But i have been moderator/admin, on many other games, forums and such, i know how important is to follow the rules, and give the proper punishment for breaking them, from my experience, i can surely say you're being to soft, to those who break the rules.
I know how fragile and damaging the punishments can get, specially when what you're working on has "low population".
But you've never even tried to set an example, from someone that breaks the rules.

Kirjoittanut T.Atheist, 18.03.2012 at 10:37

i can surely say you're being to soft, to those who break the rules.

But you've never even tried to set an example, from someone that breaks the rules.

I agree.

Kirjoittanut Pinheiro, 19.03.2012 at 10:44

I agree.

I disagree.

My thoughts-
1. Please don't say that all the mods do is keep the global chat clear. You don't see most of the work we do because we don't make a big show of it, but there is much more involved.
2. Hugo is absolutely right. It's the same players that get in trouble time and time again. The large majority of players don't get in trouble and don't even know the rules because the rules are derived from common sense. No one should have to tell you 'don't bully another player'.
3. A rule book is pointless. It invites players that misbehave to look for loopholes and escape punishment.
The rules are fine. If you need them to be more specific then you either fail to realize their purpose, or otherwise have no sense of common courtesy.

Why no one comments on my suggestion for gameplay?

) :

Probably because they are buried in a post that comes across as complaining about the rules. I suggest letting this one die and make a constructive idea and suggestion post if you have game play ideas.

Lol SRB always complaining about rules..wonder why?

Kirjoittanut Boys_Noize, 20.03.2012 at 11:20

Lol SRB always complaining about rules..wonder why?

².

Kirjoittanut Boys_Noize, 20.03.2012 at 11:20

Lol SRB always complaining about rules..wonder why?

I wonder if any inquiry or suggestion I make from now on will be looked upon as if SRB itself was suggesting it, then quickly being dismissed because of it.

Kirjoittanut notserral, 20.03.2012 at 12:38

Kirjoittanut Boys_Noize, 20.03.2012 at 11:20

Lol SRB always complaining about rules..wonder why?

I wonder if any inquiry or suggestion I make from now on will be looked upon as if SRB itself was suggesting it, then quickly being dismissed because of it.

Not necessarily, but if the quality of your suggestions are consistently subpar (I'm not saying they are), then yes they probably will be quickly dismissed.

I have never read the rules, and i doubt most people in srb have. I also have never done anything i would consider morally wrong, or something that should be against the rules, generally i give respect when respect is due, and if you don't give me a reason to make fun of you, then i won't. and i make fun of you, and you don't like it, then change, it's really that simple, if you don't want people to pick on you, don't be a retard.

SO lets look at Byzantia... We don't read the rules just to pick points and flaws at it. We are not a huge bunch of trolls, yet everyone believes we are, and the moderators are extra harsh on us, and are more likely to warn and mute us for minor offences. Also, and ideas and suggestions we give that are actually really great are totally ignored .
eg. Elo
me saying the current coalition seasons are a pile of shit,
oh and the admins ignoring what Houdini said about desert storm, and implementing a worthless strategy.

Anyway i talk to these guys every day, they are bros to me, why? because i don't make an idiot out of myself, and have a sense of humour greater than a two year old.

so to some it up: If you can't deal with us trolling you because you are retarded
1. Grow a few brain cells
2. Get better at the game
or alternatively
3. Get off the internet, seriously.
oh and also
4. you are all wrong, srb is bro tier. get a sense of humour and stop being biased lmao.

Kirjoittanut nonames, 20.03.2012 at 21:40

Words

Watch out guys, we're dealing with a Badass over here.

The core of the discussion is certainly whether or not rule 14 is too vague to be implemented. To given an example, one could assume that the current status of rule 14, that is, as strict as any other rule yet open to interpretation, parallels many issues that have plagued justice systems for centuries. Simply, it leaves justice in the hands of one man's sentiment and not within a concrete legal code. Similarly, if every court case were determined by any judge whimsical opinion without basis in outlined statues, one could expect a major societal backlash.

The current game environment we are in demonstrates that certain moderators can and will be biased towards particular segments of the community. As others have stated before me, no decision can be perfect, as no human is completely unbiased. This leaves three major options for the future of rule 14
- Status Quo, ignoring the arguments on this thread and continuing to allow the rule to be subject to interpretation
- Abandonment of the rule and permitting the community to proceed, hopefully, with a state of self-government and anarchy, as is already somewhat apparent from the taboo of betraying one's allies.
- A logical process by which moderators can determine exactly what does fall under this rule and can then allow the community to voice its opinion on the proposed facets of the law.

Here on this thread, it is evident that rule 14 has been exposed for what harm it can do in certain situations, and this knowledge will only become more profuse and exacerbate the issue if a compromise is not worked out. I would forcefully advocate for a definite list of infractions that fall under "harmful behavior" and a panel consisting jointly of moderators and a community member, the latter in order to provide balance and sustain a sense of fairness. Certainly, to preserve the equilibrium between moderator and member, tyranny and anarchy, a mod-supervised organization with member input would be ideal.

Some people take the game too seriously by trying to go around rules, trying to change it in their favour, etc. The normal AW player won't do it why?Common sense man they just play to have fun and all. They play it how it is, and so far, the rules have held up really well I think.

Its not that mods single out one cln, its just that most troublemakers and smart alecks come from it. Personally I don't have any issues with anyone in this game (if someone does LOL go for a jog bro).

If your cln is a bro cln more power to you just know that some people might not share your sense of humor,etc. in the case of the AW community, a majority dont seem to think like your cln. I don't mind a little variety and some characters in this game keep me entertained/laughing for sure but just know not everyone is like that.

Mods are here to keep trolling to a minimum, if people really want to troll, go troll somewhere else. This is the internet, surely you can go somewhere else to troll noh?

I cant say anything on the suggestions though (havent seen/read them) might be great yeah too bad they didnt implement it. Btw not all of Byzantia are trolls lol, just that most and well known trolls on AW come from it;)

YOU STAY CLASSY SAN DIEGO!

Kirjoittanut Boys_Noize, 20.03.2012 at 23:15

Mods are here to keep trolling to a minimum, if people really want to troll, go troll somewhere else. This is the internet, surely you can go somewhere else to troll noh?

incorrect, most of the mods troll us and other players too, and they know they cn get away with it because they are mods, those rules don't apply for them.

Ah well I wouldn't know that, I've never had any issues with them and people I know never had issues with them too. If anything, I think they are fair in their decisions with how they dole out bans and all. They do seem to ban a few SRB members on the regular though, for reasons unknown to me but between you and them. Whatever that is, is between SRB and mods, thats not my business, im not going to get in there lol

Again, just saying that majority of the community might not share the same sentiments as your cln. Although based on what guest 369111 (4th post) said, what happened was definitely trolling lol and all players in that game have a right to be pissed, casual games are casual because that how some people pressed for time can only play this game and its being ruined like that. Ive been late joined a few times by several SRB members in normal games but hey it happens when someone forgets to set joining week to 3 cant blame them lol. But cmon, in causal games then mucking up the turn times?cmon guys learn to draw the line.

Ah, Arbitrator has uncovered the truth about Mods I see. We're all here to troll players for no reason, we're all biased, and we're smug knowing we can get away with it. In fact, I just banned Amok's account so he'll never read this thread and discover our secret.

Kirjoittanut nonames, 20.03.2012 at 21:40

[...] Also, and ideas and suggestions we give that are actually really great are totally ignored.
eg. Elo
me saying the current coalition seasons are a pile of shit,
oh and the admins ignoring what Houdini said about desert storm, and implementing a worthless strategy. [...]

- The ELO system was supported by mods, who even posted their support in the thread
- Same with the current coalition system
- About Desert Storm: A lot players had suggestion on this. Finally they implemented what was asked, not only by Houdini, but also whats technical doable
Not getting all your idea's done, doesn't mean there is not taken a look at it. Really, you guys are totally ignored, and i don't even know why i'm posting a reply on a SRB post right now.

Also you take the victim role, like most of the banned and muted players also do. "We get muted and banned for nothing, we are really such nice guys and all players just don't understand our humour. BTW; all mods are biased because they muted me, i didn't do anything; they just muted me when i was playing a game!".

Kirjoittanut Boys_Noize, 21.03.2012 at 00:09

[..] I've never had any issues with them and people I know never had issues with them too.

This.
Most people don't have anything to do with any mod.