Nazis

If nazis are(were) good, victims of the World War II and claim moral highground, then why:



1) Use skulls and hooks as their symbol

2) Make rallies at night in the dark, not like every other group on day

3) Ban democratic elections and impose one-party state

4) Use black shirts for party members

5) Create cult of personality around leader

6) Create party paramilitary wing

7) Make policies and enact laws without citizens participation

8) Promote expansionism

9) Use violence against minorities, or strip them of human and civil rights

10) Claim to stop class warfare but create new class of elites

They are not good. End of the story.

Whoever says they were good needs their head examined

Kirjoittanut Guest, 16.04.2016 at 13:40

They are not good. End of the story.

But ring-wing ideologies are proliferated recently across Europe, even reaching Phillipines! (not saying they are connected to European nazis)

Some of their groups crossed electoral threshold in their respective countries, while internet and most dangerously, our beloved motherland Atwar is infected with them!

2) nazis are hard working and have jobs... dont have time durring the day to rally like lazy jobless commies who want to live out of social benefits

Kirjoittanut Goblin, 16.04.2016 at 15:10

2) nazis are hard working and have jobs... dont have time durring the day to rally like lazy jobless commies who want to live out of social benefits

Good one.

Kirjoittanut Guest, 16.04.2016 at 13:40

They are not good. End of the story.

Nazis are a thing of the past, and of course were not good. Right-wing Movements that are rising across europe are not a fraction of what Nazism was..

Lainaa:

Lainaa:

But ring-wing ideologies are proliferated recently across Europe, even reaching Phillipines! (not saying they are connected to European nazis)

Some of their groups crossed electoral threshold in their respective countries, while internet and most dangerously, our beloved motherland Atwar is infected with them!

Both fascism and nazism are third way ideologies, don't try to put it on the right-wing, since i could state here that Nazism is a left-wing ideology because of its strong State.

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 16.04.2016 at 13:34

If nazis are(were) good, victims of the World War II and claim moral highground, then why:

1) Use skulls and hooks as their symbol
2) Make rallies at night in the dark, not like every other group on day
3) Ban democratic elections and impose one-party state
4) Use black shirts for party members
5) Create cult of personality around leader
6) Create party paramilitary wing
7) Make policies and enact laws without citizens participation
8) Promote expansionism
9) Use violence against minorities, or strip them of human and civil rights
10) Claim to stop class warfare but create new class of elites

1) What? As far as I know those symbols were for 2 of the SS divisions. Because two divisions of a state which has several million men in service embody that state, huh?
2) As far as I know many republican, constitutionalist(Wanting to transform an absolute monarchy into a constitutional, democratic one) and socialist movements have employed the same tactic when they're hunted by the state(Which all of them were, too)
3) This kind of thing has been done by leaders of pretty much every ideology...
4) The Nazis were actually known as brownshirts. Black shirts were introduced by the Italian National Fascist Party led by Benito Mussolini. The black shirt, once adopted, was a special uniform reserved for SS members.
5) This has been done by almost every dictatorship since the turn of the 20th century.
6) Created by several other ideological movements as well. Once a group gets radical enough it will form a paramilitary corp.(Ex; Bolsheviks in Russia organized paramilitary forces before the revolution, and the militias that fought the US war of independence was also a paramilitary group)
7) Once again - This is a hallmark of any system of governance. To be fair, in our western democracies we can only participate once every 4 years. Which means that technically the majority of all decisions are taken without the consent of the people. This is a natural consequence of having a representative system.
8) Soviet Imperialism, American Imperialism, Japanese Imperialism. I don't need to add much more.
9) Again, done by the US, the USSR and pretty much all the nations under USSR dominance after WW2. Read up on the expulsions of Germans from Poland and the expulsions of Hungarians from Slovakia. And since you think the USSR and socialism are such angels, read up on the Katyn Massacre.
10) Done by the USSR and other socialist states as well. Remove the rich, centralize the government. What's left? Bureaucrats are the upper class now.

Kirjoittanut Flume, 16.04.2016 at 15:32

Both fascism and nazism are third way ideologies, don't try to put it on the right-wing, since i could state here that Nazism is a left-wing ideology because of its strong State.

But left-wing ideologies tend to reduce the State and the Government in order to achieve Communism (classless-stateless utopia), while right-wing ideologies tend to interfere in the economy (corporatism) and society (youth groups, mass movements, conscription of workers for megaprojects), therefore creating pervasive state. Right?

I am not trying to put Nazism in right-wing ideologies: NeoNazis does that, for example in Ukraine, they sing SS songs, sieg hello each other and cite Hitler frequently. They call themselve Right, and they say they fight the Left.

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 16.04.2016 at 15:45

But left-wing ideologies tend to reduce the State and the Government in order to achieve Communism (classless-stateless utopia), while right-wing ideologies tend to interfere in the economy (corporatism) and society (youth groups, mass movements, conscription of workers for megaprojects), therefore creating pervasive state. Right?

I am not trying to put Nazism in right-wing ideologies: NeoNazis does that, for example in Ukraine, they sing SS songs, sieg hello each other and cite Hitler frequently. They call themselve Right, and they say they fight the Left.

Not once has a major left-wing movement reduced the State. Not ONCE.

Its funny that you desribe those want to keep their countries and their race safe as "nazis", and dont fool yourself into thinking todays countries are "democratic", true democracy is direct democracy, this "representitive" democracy is utter BS and is just a way of making people belive theor opinion matters, they do their own shit no matter who the people chose.

In the end just remember the good old phrase "If voting mattered they wouldnt let us do it"

Kirjoittanut 5th SS Wiking, 16.04.2016 at 15:43

1) What? As far as I know those symbols were for 2 of the SS divisions. Because two divisions of a state which has several million men in service embody that state, huh?

But skulls? Everyone use stars and/or stripes, but skulls?

Nazi swastika is a hook(s), Ukrainian neonazi flag has a hook.

America, USSR and China have/had stars, most European countries have cross.

Kirjoittanut 5th SS Wiking, 16.04.2016 at 15:43

2) As far as I know many republican, constitutionalist(Wanting to transform an absolute monarchy into a constitutional, democratic one) and socialist movements have employed the same tactic when they're hunted by the state(Which all of them were, too)

Were Nazis hunted from 1933 to 1939? They owned Germany, so why at night? Ukraine is free and large, Nazis are in power, so why they still rally at night with torches? Makes no sense to me beside they are evil.

Kirjoittanut 5th SS Wiking, 16.04.2016 at 15:43

4) The Nazis were actually known as brownshirts. Black shirts were introduced by the Italian National Fascist Party led by Benito Mussolini. The black shirt, once adopted, was a special uniform reserved for SS members.

Why brown and black? Why not white, blue, yellow? Why dark color, and then they parade at night.

Very ominous sign.

Kirjoittanut 5th SS Wiking, 16.04.2016 at 15:43

6) Created by several other ideological movements as well. Once a group gets radical enough it will form a paramilitary corp.(Ex; Bolsheviks in Russia organized paramilitary forces before the revolution, and the militias that fought the US war of independence was also a paramilitary group)

So radical/extreme groups use violence and rule of force via paramilitaries.

US Militia was a paramilitary illegal group at a time(yet, hard to say illegal as back then they didn't had developed law system like we have today), but they were fighting English oppression, that can hardly be evil, plus they didn't wear black uniform or paraded at night.

Kirjoittanut 5th SS Wiking, 16.04.2016 at 15:43

8) Soviet Imperialism, American Imperialism, Japanese Imperialism. I don't need to add much more.

I thought USSR liberated colonies from imperialist. Remember decolonization of Africa, Middle East and India? So how can USSR be imperialist then? Also what land did USSR colonize?

America never declared war on countries after WW2, even when they invade. Both USA and USSR does not promote expansionism. Never did.

Kirjoittanut 5th SS Wiking, 16.04.2016 at 15:43

9) Again, done by the US, the USSR and pretty much all the nations under USSR dominance after WW2. Read up on the expulsions of Germans from Poland and the expulsions of Hungarians from Slovakia.

Where is connection between Poland kicking Germans and USSR? Where is connection between Slovakia kicking Hungarians and USSR? Do you blame Colombia for Pakistan kicking Indians? I am asking why NAZIS oppress minorities.

US did torture natives, but USSR made them republics, raised their language to official status, funded education, healthcare, welfare, allowed newspapers and TV on their language - funded by Moscow. Free college education, equal share of seats in the congress, promoted their culture, art and history. Read Wikipedia articles 'Korenizatsiya' and 'National delimitation in the USSR'.

USSR non-Russians would not vote 99% to preserve USSR in 1991 on referendum (type soviet 1991 referendum in google images) if USSR oppressed them, or you call them stupid?. Read 'Disintegration of the USSR' on Wikipedia, Kazakhstan which is non-Russian republic left the Union last and was most vocal to preserve the Union and continue to live in multicultural country. 4 years after collapse they proposed Eurasian Union to try and unite ex-republics and 20 years later, today, they created it.

Kirjoittanut 5th SS Wiking, 16.04.2016 at 15:43

And since you think the USSR and socialism are such angels, read up on the Katyn Massacre.

How come asking questions about Nazi symbols makes you think USSR and Socialism are angels? I don't see correlation.

Kirjoittanut 5th SS Wiking, 16.04.2016 at 15:43

10) Done by the USSR and other socialist states as well. Remove the rich, centralize the government. What's left? Bureaucrats are the upper class now.

But USSR and Socialists PROMOTE Class Warfare and they openly say they remove the rich. It's written in Marx books. But Nazis claim they unite classes. Don't avoid facts if you already reply.

Kirjoittanut 5th SS Wiking, 16.04.2016 at 15:48

Not once has a major left-wing movement reduced the State. Not ONCE.

But they never promoted large state. So question still remains.

Kirjoittanut RP Pro, 16.04.2016 at 15:50

Its funny that you desribe those want to keep their countries and their race safe as "nazis", and dont fool yourself into thinking todays countries are "democratic", true democracy is direct democracy, this "representitive" democracy is utter BS and is just a way of making people belive theor opinion matters, they do their own shit no matter who the people chose.

In the end just remember the good old phrase "If voting mattered they wouldnt let us do it"

You didn't answer.

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 16.04.2016 at 16:22

Kirjoittanut 5th SS Wiking, 16.04.2016 at 15:48

Not once has a major left-wing movement reduced the State. Not ONCE.

But they never promoted large state. So question still remains.

Does it matter whether ot not they promoted a big state if they created one.... Mao was irritated at the bureaucracy under the Nationalist and instead created a huge bureaucracy in his party-state. The facts remains that before government can be "abolished", it must creep into every faucet of society before it is then "removed." No leftist group advocating less government through communism (which is in theory anarchist) has ever decreased the role of government.

Kirjoittanut Pheonixking929, 16.04.2016 at 16:54

Does it matter whether ot not they promoted a big state if they created one.... Mao was irritated at the bureaucracy under the Nationalist and instead created a huge bureaucracy in his party-state. The facts remains that before government can be "abolished", it must creep into every faucet of society before it is then "removed." No leftist group advocating less government through communism (which is in theory anarchist) has ever decreased the role of government.

It matters when you promote genocide, war and hatred. Even America invade and fight across the globe, but you didn't hear US politicians or group promoting hatred, genocide or oppressing minorities.

In the other hand, it matters that Communists didn't promote large state and government, although they made it. Because they didn't promote certain things. But it is logical conclusion that country like USSR would either end up in communist utopia (as you said: anarchism) or end up with large state. Because it was giant country, there was no compromise. It is hard to control such vast territories without an army of bureaucrats and administrators, the opposite was Anarchism.
And as expected - every other Socialist state followed Soviet example because USSR was first and largest Socialist country. So they copied Soviet large state.


EDIT:

China also had large government, but look now, They liberalised economy, it is private now and they have no say in it, they abandoned communist teachings in schools, and only internet and tv is left censored while everything other is liberaised. But even that is debatable because they censor porn and foreign critics of China on the internet, and on the TV they censor some movies and reality shows (western and japanese). And you must agree TV shows are waste of time while porn is unnecessary freedom to have on the internet. I mean i have freedom to bomb my own house now, but no need for that.

IF COMMIES AND NAZIS NEVER EXISTED..............

Lainaa:

But skulls? Everyone use stars and/or stripes, but skulls?

Nazi swastika is a hook(s), Ukrainian neonazi flag has a hook.

America, USSR and China have/had stars, most European countries have cross.

The 'skulls' were used by SS concentration camp guards and the 3rd SS-Division 'Totenkopf'. Yet again this is not a national symbol at that time.
The Swastika is an ancient symbol dating back over 3,000 years, especially in the far east. Calling the swastika itself wicked or wrong just proves how utterly ignorant you are.

Lainaa:

Were Nazis hunted from 1933 to 1939? They owned Germany, so why at night? Ukraine is free and large, Nazis are in power, so why they still rally at night with torches? Makes no sense to me beside they are evil.

The Nazis weren't exactly accepted even in the German society. Attempts of suppression came from all sides of the government, including several attempts at and a successfull although short ban of the party.

Lainaa:

Why brown and black? Why not white, blue, yellow? Why dark color, and then they parade at night.

Very ominous sign.

Psychological warfare.

Lainaa:

So radical/extreme groups use violence and rule of force via paramilitaries.

US Militia was a paramilitary illegal group at a time(yet, hard to say illegal as back then they didn't had developed law system like we have today), but they were fighting English oppression, that can hardly be evil, plus they didn't wear black uniform or paraded at night.

Lainaa:

I thought USSR liberated colonies from imperialist. Remember decolonization of Africa, Middle East and India? So how can USSR be imperialist then? Also what land did USSR colonize?

America never declared war on countries after WW2, even when they invade. Both USA and USSR does not promote expansionism. Never did.

We have several proxy wars to disprove this statement. and the annexation of and following expulsions from Eastern Poland tell another story. They also annexed territory adjacent to Leningrad following the Winter War 1939-1940 and attempted the creation of communist puppet states worldwide.
The United States of America have fought the same proxy wars on the opposite side. The US has the same habit of shadow domination by installing 'rightful' puppet governments just like the USSR did.

Lainaa:

Where is connection between Poland kicking Germans and USSR? Where is connection between Slovakia kicking Hungarians and USSR? Do you blame Colombia for Pakistan kicking Indians? I am asking why NAZIS oppress minorities.

US did torture natives, but USSR made them republics, raised their language to official status, funded education, healthcare, welfare, allowed newspapers and TV on their language - funded by Moscow. Free college education, equal share of seats in the congress, promoted their culture, art and history. Read Wikipedia articles 'Korenizatsiya' and 'National delimitation in the USSR'.

USSR non-Russians would not vote 99% to preserve USSR in 1991 on referendum (type soviet 1991 referendum in google images) if USSR oppressed them, or you call them stupid?. Read 'Disintegration of the USSR' on Wikipedia, Kazakhstan which is non-Russian republic left the Union last and was most vocal to preserve the Union and continue to live in multicultural country. 4 years after collapse they proposed Eurasian Union to try and unite ex-republics and 20 years later, today, they created it.

Katyn Massacre, and the forceful expulsions of Poles from the 'Kresy' area, today part of Belarus, Ukraine and Vilnius. Many of these areas had up to a third Polish population living there from the days of Poland-Lithuania. Also, it is related to the USSR because the governments formed in the East Bloc were practically Soviet puppets with the exception of Yugoslavia. In fact, the Polish government of 1945 wanted to become a Soviet Socialist Republic and be integrated into the USSR.
In addition, similar expulsions of Germans were carried out in modern Kaliningrad Oblast and the Soviet Union openly supported the expulsion of Germans from Poland.

Lainaa:

How come asking questions about Nazi symbols makes you think USSR and Socialism are angels? I don't see correlation.

I've seen you around in countless topics and you keep making the same, pro-Russian, pro-USSR, pro-Communist statements ALL THE TIME.

Lainaa:

But USSR and Socialists PROMOTE Class Warfare and they openly say they remove the rich. It's written in Marx books. But Nazis claim they unite classes. Don't avoid facts if you already reply.

Fascist and Nazi economic policy was built on the state mediation of the relationship between worker and owner. Therefore it does technically unite the classes by trying to level the field.

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 16.04.2016 at 13:34

1) Use skulls and hooks as their symbol

2) Make rallies at night in the dark, not like every other group on day

How are these inherently bad?

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 16.04.2016 at 13:34

2) Make rallies at night in the dark, not like every other group on day

Most Antifa actions we carry out between dusk and dawn.

Deep inside, the Germans are the victims. Nazis were the result of the insane terms of the treaty of Versailles. They brought despair to the German people, who were impoverished worse than any other European country in history. They saw no way out of their situation, and suddenly Nazis come and promise to fix everything.

Kirjoittanut Viruslegion, 16.04.2016 at 21:34

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 16.04.2016 at 13:34

1) Use skulls and hooks as their symbol

2) Make rallies at night in the dark, not like every other group on day

How are these inherently bad?

You tell me why it isn't.

Kirjoittanut Columna Durruti, 16.04.2016 at 22:27

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 16.04.2016 at 13:34

2) Make rallies at night in the dark, not like every other group on day

Most Antifa actions we carry out between dusk and dawn.

Oooh i get it, good one!

Kirjoittanut Zephyrusu, 17.04.2016 at 03:26

Deep inside, the Germans are the victims. Nazis were the result of the insane terms of the treaty of Versailles. They brought despair to the German people, who were impoverished worse than any other European country in history. They saw no way out of their situation, and suddenly Nazis come and promise to fix everything.

How can German people become victims of peace treaty made in Versailles? It only says there they should pay reparations as a punishment for start the war. Why is Versaille Treaty guilty for failed Imperial German economy and Weimars suffering from it?

I agree failed imperial economy, power vacuum, party politics and crime brought despair to the German people.

German people after WW1 were impoverished worse than any other European country in history? More than Greece and Serbia under Turkish Empire? More than Russia under Mongols and Poles? Can you really compare Greek history vacuum created by the Turks for 500 years (1400-1900) and 10-year despair of the Germans?

-----

Why Nazis used dark and death omens?

Lainaa:

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 17.04.2016 at 05:10

Deep inside, the Germans are the victims. Nazis were the result of the insane terms of the treaty of Versailles. They brought despair to the German people, who were impoverished worse than any other European country in history. They saw no way out of their situation, and suddenly Nazis come and promise to fix everything.

How can German people become victims of peace treaty made in Versailles? It only says there they should pay reparations as a punishment for start the war. Why is Versaille Treaty guilty for failed Imperial German economy and Weimars suffering from it?

I agree failed imperial economy, power vacuum, party politics and crime brought despair to the German people.

German people after WW1 were impoverished worse than any other European country in history? More than Greece and Serbia under Turkish Empire? More than Russia under Mongols and Poles? Can you really compare Greek history vacuum created by the Turks for 500 years (1400-1900) and 10-year despair of the Germans?

-----

Why Nazis used dark and death omens?

The war reperations were enormous, they caused hyperinflation in Germany. Also the Turkish occupation of Greece was worse for various reasons that I won't bother to state atm but the Greek under Ottoman rule weren't as poor as Weimar Germans. Funfact: At the end of WW1, the averange German family's entire savings were worth 3 loafs of bread.

3.the soviets did that
5. http://prntscr.com/dwk0hr
7.soviets did that
8.again same
9.again
10. same






soviets are as bad as the nazis it is like voting bettwen being eaten by an anaconda or poisned by a cobra

Kirjoittanut Brsjak, 16.01.2017 at 18:05

3.the soviets did that
5. http://prntscr.com/dwk0hr
7.soviets did that
8.again same
9.again
10. same






soviets are as bad as the nazis it is like voting bettwen being eaten by an anaconda or poisned by a cobra

Commies are the best, end of this story too.

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 16.04.2016 at 13:34

3) Ban democratic elections and impose one-party state

4) Use black shirts for party members

6) Create party paramilitary wing

7) Make policies and enact laws without citizens participation

when u find out national socialism isn't democratic

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 16.04.2016 at 17:12

It matters when you promote genocide, war and hatred. Even America invade and fight across the globe, but you didn't hear US politicians or group promoting hatred, genocide or oppressing minorities.

Hm, yeah, sure...

Reading through all this, all I can objectively say is that there's much about politics and psychology to be learned.

Kirjoittanut Brsjak, 16.01.2017 at 18:05

3.the soviets did that
5. http://prntscr.com/dwk0hr
7.soviets did that
8.again same
9.again
10. same

soviets are as bad as the nazis it is like voting bettwen being eaten by an anaconda or poisned by a cobra

We were not talking about Soviets, but about Nazis.

But let me reply to soviet arguments:

1. Soviets didn't had hooks as a symbols, but sickle and hammers, which i don't think it is ominous as something obvious as a hook

2. Soviets didn't oppress minorities, in fact they were oppressing majority, the Russians, by taking russian land and giving it to minorities estonians, kyrgyz ans georgians (Stalin was georgian not russian), making parliament where estonians, moldavians and uzbeks had same number of senators as russians albite having few million people in comparison to hundred million Russians, that's pro-minority policy and harm majority of people. I don't even remember if USSR had any russian leader; lenin was chuvash, stalin was georgian, khrushchyov was ukrainian (and took crimea from russians and gave it to ukraine), Malyenkov was macedonian, Chernenko was ukrainian. Only Gorbachyov was Russian and instantly when he got power he liberalized and democraticized USSR, creating Glasnost and Perestroika, opening up society. So if you have so much random nationalities as leaders who do the same, and then Russian come and create democracy, that tells alot.

3. USSR wasn't expansionist as it didn't attack any country (beside ex-russian imperial like finland and baltic), and even removed expansionist ideology of Trotsky 'permanent worldwide revolution' and replaced it with 'Socialism in One Country' which mean it was internally focused, not externally clearly, and there are proofs of industrialization and five-year plans which are domestic policies not foreign.

4. I don't recall Stalin had a cult of personality, never heard of it, must be western propaganda in cold war, but i remember every soviet city had Lenin's statue and lenin's name on streets, towns, squares. Thousands of Lenin statues and cult of personality, even Lenin Mausoleum, but i don't remember anyone mentioned Stalin.

5. The rest is true, beaurocrats were ruling class replacing tsarist nobility and banning multiparty system, but they still allowed party democracy so anyone could participate and vote, while nazis had hierarchy and elitism which they openly admitted and worked on it called 'trenchocracy' and didn't allow anyone outside inner party to have power, only Hitler and his few mates (himmler, goering, goebbels)

6. I don't see modern historians putting communism in the same basket as nazism, as communism never promoted violence, hatred and racism, it wasn't perfect ideology, but it was still an ideology, unlike nazism which is pure crime and not a single foundation to back it up as political ideology different than capitalism or communism.

Kirjoittanut RaulPB, 17.01.2017 at 13:03

Hm, yeah, sure...

Reading through all this, all I can objectively say is that there's much about politics and psychology to be learned.

You can't learn politics, it's not science, you can only observe it, or participate.

But psychology you can learn, there's alot to learn there and there is even undiscovered parts yet.

Kirjoittanut Skanderbeg, 18.01.2017 at 15:47

You can't learn politics, it's not science, you can only observe it, or participate.

But psychology you can learn, there's alot to learn there and there is even undiscovered parts yet.

Is there an inconcious need to debate everything? Ok, master. There's yet a lot to be observed and understood in politics and there's even more of human psychology to learn and understand, both for you guys, including yourself. Have a nice day.