More Power to Mapmakers
Postit: 460
Viereailijat: 147 users
In light of Martell announcing that he is going to take down his RP map, it brings up another important issue, that of how much power a mapmaker should have.
Martell is taking down his map because his ban list is not being respected. The children who played his map would go to moderators because they think that their bans were "unfair" or "unjust" and the moderators would then step in and threaten Martell.
This is a disgusting abuse of moderator's powers. Moderators are here to enforce the AtWar basic rules so that AtWar can be a safe environment and free from spam and trolls. They are not here to regulate mapmakers. Mapmakers are the people who keep this game running, as without their maps, far less people would play AtWar. It is the hard work and creativity of the mapmakers that makes this game special. Moderators stepping in and regulating does not make the game any safer or better, it only causes mapmakers to close down their maps, feel bullied by "big government", and sometimes even flee from the game as the outcome of their hard work is not worth the effort.
Mapmakers should be able to ban people from their maps for whatever reason they want. If the mapmaker is truly abusing his power on banning people, the market will take its course, and the map will not be played as often as there are either too many bans or people do not think highly of the mapmaker. It is not like the maps made are the only ones available, all of them are easily substituted with another map of similar value. If you really think your ban was unjustified, go play another, similar map. The people bitching about being banned from Martell's map can easily go to Tempted's map. If they are banned from both, then my assumption would be that they truly deserved it.
Also, my map is my work and my property. Forcing me to allow people to use my map who I don't want is forcing me to work hard on creating these maps for certain people who I did not voluntarily agree to work for or suffer consequences, which is essentially slavery. You cannot force me to allow people to use my property.
Mapmakers, it's time to stand up for yourselves.
[EDITED BY CTHULHU]: Martell's thread has been deleted by Martell
Martell is taking down his map because his ban list is not being respected. The children who played his map would go to moderators because they think that their bans were "unfair" or "unjust" and the moderators would then step in and threaten Martell.
This is a disgusting abuse of moderator's powers. Moderators are here to enforce the AtWar basic rules so that AtWar can be a safe environment and free from spam and trolls. They are not here to regulate mapmakers. Mapmakers are the people who keep this game running, as without their maps, far less people would play AtWar. It is the hard work and creativity of the mapmakers that makes this game special. Moderators stepping in and regulating does not make the game any safer or better, it only causes mapmakers to close down their maps, feel bullied by "big government", and sometimes even flee from the game as the outcome of their hard work is not worth the effort.
Mapmakers should be able to ban people from their maps for whatever reason they want. If the mapmaker is truly abusing his power on banning people, the market will take its course, and the map will not be played as often as there are either too many bans or people do not think highly of the mapmaker. It is not like the maps made are the only ones available, all of them are easily substituted with another map of similar value. If you really think your ban was unjustified, go play another, similar map. The people bitching about being banned from Martell's map can easily go to Tempted's map. If they are banned from both, then my assumption would be that they truly deserved it.
Also, my map is my work and my property. Forcing me to allow people to use my map who I don't want is forcing me to work hard on creating these maps for certain people who I did not voluntarily agree to work for or suffer consequences, which is essentially slavery. You cannot force me to allow people to use my property.
Mapmakers, it's time to stand up for yourselves.
[EDITED BY CTHULHU]: Martell's thread has been deleted by Martell
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Ladataan...
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We pay for the tools We pay for premium We pay to have playable maps So yes, our money is 100% the reason admins made it, if admins were not going to sell their product they wound't have made the editor, or can you use the editor for free?
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No. None of us contributed to the game before it was up and running. Amok and Ivan made this game possible. No one else. You did not pay them to write the code. Paying $40 does not mean you are entitled to atWar. Just stop. You payed for lifetime subscription, which gives you - More game options, More Strategies, discounts, it gives you the power to lead a coalition, AND it allows you to create custom maps and scenarios. That is all.
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You're grasping at straws here. It does not matter if you have accepted Pulse's proposal. He pronounced that map makers must substantiate their claims when challenged. When a moderator does this, and pins their own topic to boot, their word is official. I suppose I'll have to go spell it out for everyone here nonetheless. It does not matter if Pulse has or has not specified between "silly and screenshot," it clearly says you need to justify your actions when challenged otherwise your ban list will be edited.
While Tik-Tok is no official source, unlike Pulse, I was quoting Tik-Tok for his words about accountability and agreement that you need to provide evidence when challenged. I'll answer your cutting anyway. "it not hard to differentiate between the naive and the malicous." This part here is the map makers responsibility. You should be differentiating and clarifying who has legitimately caused trouble to a degree where you had to take action. Do so, and take a simple screen shot with an extra 5 seconds and you'll be fine when your claim is challenged.
This is not what we are after. As per the statement Pulse made directly after the advent of the ban lists, moderators are simply mediating between map maker and those who disagree with their actions. Prove your claim and you're completely fine in doing whatever you want.
My statements above answers this. It is a completely fair system. Your arguments have no grounds to stand on.
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Your claim is invalid, because afterwind didn't started with a feature to make custom maps, it was implemented until late december of 2012, and all maps made since then are made by users.
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Can a free member make maps? No. Can i make maps if i pay? Yes. Did i pay? Yes I am sure i am entitle to make maps.
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You can't do anything to stop me from blocking people the access to my map, what are you going to do when i hide them all, and only i can host it? 
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That isn't my problem. I would imagine those who like hosting that map would host another map. Your action just gets you less plays, your name doesn't appear as often, etc. A problem arises when I get a report or complaint that seems to coincide with rules moderators have laid down. You've lost this argument Tunder3, and it shows. Everyone else, please read my other posts above and throughout the thread for any answers you wish to have. Please refer to this when you want to know the rule(s) about your ban lists (and your responsibilities to justify your claims when challenged): http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=14740 Please refer to the general rules of atWar for everything else: http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=1843 Good day to you all.
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I would go nuts if my parents threw away my personal stuff. I would KILL anyone who tried to steal my home. I would just cry a bit if any mod deleted my AW account. It's just an "online property", if that's even considered property... Internet ain't our after all... getting pissed cause of a game just doesn't seem normal to me and doesn't solve anything either. This isn't a community issue, it's a map makers' issue. The community as whole doesn't ask for more power, a little portion of the community is. More power for a little portion doesn't help the majority of us. You're just one of the map makers that would have the power to ban anyone for any reason. I can't trust, no matter what you say, every single map maker there is or that there will be. If you affirm so convinced that you have no selfish purpose, where is the problem to provide a ss? If you don't ban for no reason, then you'd be able to defend all your bans wiht a single ss... and there would be no one that would do anything against your decission... That's what I still don't get... if you affirm you don't abuse the ban tool, then why the need to keep in secret your reasons to ban? If you don't abuse it, you should be able to defend absolutely every ban you made... right?
---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people. 
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Except the community is strongly affected by it. This community is ridden with assholes. You want more people to be respected? How about actual consequences for being a dick. Like oh shit I got muted for 15 minutes woe is me I'm going to go fucking die now. Oh wow one whole fucking day for being a dick wow that is so effective. You know what would be more affective? Limiting the maps a person could play. I strongly believe in free speech, and I would oppose moderators imposing more rules on what we can and can't say, but let the player base regulate itself. If I feel some guy is a cocksucking asshole who probably was that one retard who took a dump in the water fountain at school, I should have every right to ban them from my maps. Another way in which this affects the community is because if someone wallfucks first turn, I might have not taken a screenshot to ban them with, and then I have to unban his ass because I forgot. Then the community has to suffer him doing it again. I also don't want to fill up with my computer with screenshots, nor do I want to have to look through all my files every time I get challenged by some pussyfag who wants himself unbanned. Let mapmakers regulate themselves.
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And as i stated before, you literally do what i say you do. You only give a fuck because the noobs go and spam you into talking with the map maker. You could give 0 fucks if they play the map or not, all you care is they don't report anymore.
Just because i haven't won the argument, doesn't mean i lost. All you are doing is throwing the ball to me, while ignoring my points and ignoring the question that has been circulating the topic over and over again: who really owns the maps and to what degree? Who is more important, a troll or a map maker?
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Rankist Sharck Käyttäjä poistettu |
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No, if a map maker bans you then you were found guilty and you are appealing to be unbanned, which means you are guilty until proven innocent. Just because a few minority abuses something, doesn't mean it must be removed. You are always welcome to play maps of players that aren't abusing you
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What is the problem? Moderators are supposed to at least take notice of something when someone complains or reports. I don't only care about if someone stops reporting, I'd rather know people actually use the report button/command when it's needed.
Neither of those questions are in the OP. The OP is asking for map makers to be free of moderation and stating false claims of how moderators are abusing their power. We are replying. I'll give you a bit to chew on for your questions anyway. All you've been doing is circling trying to speak of ownership when it's clear as day. You own the maps, you can hide/delete them, and you can ban people you believe don't deserve to play your map. You do not control the game you play, and when someone disagrees with you, please back yourself up. You ask, "Who is more important, a troll or a map maker?" and the answer is obviously the map maker. However, assumed trolls could also be innocent, and we do not know for sure. You can rectify this by showing a simple screen shot. Most trouble makers won't be complaining about being banned from a game, they usually know what they did wrong. Only those trying to get out of punishment or are actually innocent will complain. Again, we cannot be sure which one they are, but we know both exist. You say, "All you are doing is throwing the ball to me, while ignoring my points," but you do this exact statement to an even greater degree. I've went and answered and ruled out a lot of points here, all of which I've proven my stance and the official stance on this topic. Go around and gather points I have not covered in all my former posts. Quote them to me. I will answer and dismantle every single one, then allowing for one page of replies I shall close this thread as it will have been discussed to death. By the point of closure you will have shouted your opinions, and I shall go clarify the official rules in response. Nothing will really change, as Pulse had made the ban list rules clear months ago, but I will be adding these same guidelines to the official post.
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Tempted and I support martell to the end, vive la roleplay.
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Mods threatened to account ban me if I go on map strike. ^_^ Just if u wanted to know.
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This is why the EC sets ban limits, but ofcourse mods don't respect that either ^_^
Well the RP trio, Martell-Tempted and myself share a banlist.
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1/2 of my reports are ignored. 10/10
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Lets think about this from a business standpoint then. You are a great 3D modeler and want to make a video game. You pay another company to help produce the game. You make the models and they make the code that makes the video game playable. Sure, you paid for them to do all the code, but does that make the entire game yours? Of course not. The company that produced the game and turned your models into a playable game own royalties to the final creation. Your maps cannot exist without the code and the code would be pointless if there was no maps to play on. You and atwar both share the royalties to the map. Therefore, atwar (represented by the mods) has a say in who gets to play who's maps.
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Sorry, but i can't take your comment seriously as I am making the maps for free, without any type of incentive. While admins benefit from custom maps as they can use them as marketing or to keep the player-base busy while they translate atwar to html5. I don't see why would you have any problem with map makers having total control of their own maps, don't you trust me? don't you trust Columna Durruti? most map makers don't abuse the ban feature and the map makers that do are Faggots and it doesn't matter how much you limit them, they will always find a way to abuse the system. I don't abuse the ban feature, but i want to have total control of my own maps since with total control i won't have to go over the hassle of some troll challenging my legit bans I made the map I can delete the map I can hide the map I can hide the map, and only host it and play with people i want but i can't block a undesirable person from playing my map? that is just silly.
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Well, if you can't respond to my points I don't see the purpose in having a discussion. Rather than address my points, you decided to reiterate everything I've already heard you say in this thread. I am not saying my opinion on whether it's justified or not that mapmakers cannot ban members they find annoying form their maps. I am simply stating that the maps you make are not 100% in your possession alone, rather it is shared with the site. That site is represented by mods so they so have authority in dictating the process of banning a member from the maps.
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IMO the only people who should have authority over map maker rights are Ivan and Amok. They are far, far above any of us and could delete this entire site in a moment if they felt so inclined. Now, you are saying the moderators are representatives of their will. In theory maybe, in practice absolutely not. Some mods are acting like politicians, targeting ban lists they don't like claiming "abuse" (no such thing as abuse, only stupid bans that will make you unpopular). We are put under rigorous regulation of "innocent until proven guilty" for known scumbags. I had one case where a mod told me to unban this guy even though I had screenshot which showed the player leaving turn 1. The mod said "its possible he could not have been the first to leave." So this scumbag got unbanned and is free to troll more games, and the mods, ever seeking to be the politicians of atwar, will champion their cause, to the detriment of the aw community. Contrary to all this complaining, the ban list feature has been a huge success imo. Hundreds of trolls have been banned from good maps. All the respectable map makers have standards, and we try to get screenshots whenever possible but sometimes it is not always the case. Regardless, no moderation is needed, the free market of aw is the strongest and it should be let to run its course. Abusive map makers will get less plays. Moderators are basically like an unnecessary corrupt regulatory agency on the economy that is stifling its growth.
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Sorry Fock, but your analogy has no value because i don't make money out of the maps, if i did i would not even ban trolls.
It has already been establish that map makers own the maps at a 100% until Ivan and Amok decide to take them away from us(but they are not): Think about it like DLC, you can't play the DLC without the basegame, If you buy access to the basegame then you may have access to the DLC. - I own the DLC - Ivan and Amok own the basegame
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I actually wrote a very nice response last night, but could't publish it, because internet connection. I'll post it today anyways, even though most of the points have been refuted.
The burden of proof lies on the accuser. Because the ban list feature was introduced as a counter against "a lot of trolling, which is especially frustrating for scenarios that require a certain amount of players," and the current moderator policy certainly seems to treat the ban list as somewhere you put trolls, by putting a player on the ban list, you are accusing that person of being a troll. Judicial logic follows. if the accused, in this case the potential troll, appeals the map maker's ban, to the moderators, the moderator may overrule the ban and in favor of the accused if the map-maker fails to provide sufficient proof to demonstrate the accused guilty. Sometimes, a second, hopefully less biased, opinion on matters is beneficial. That's why many countries have a higher court to which appeals can be made. Merely because you own something, in this case the map/scenario(s), you are not entitled to perfect control over it. It's not independent territory. It is a part of, and depends on, the AtWar game as a whole. So I advise you to accept the moderators' lifting of a ban, if you couldn't produce evidence to justify it. In theory, at least, I will side with the moderators on this issue. If the moderators abuse their power and privilege (which they arguably do), that can be discussed separately.
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Read my post properly. Specifically, my example on skyscrapers.
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All of this meaningless debate... there is no question the maps makers should be fully responsible for their map without an appeal from the board of moderators since these mods arent the ones that dedicated their time, work, and thinking every second of their time to make these maps playable. its true that some map makers ban people without reason but that is their map. what can mod do? nothing. its not their product. Map makers of any map can do whatever they wants with their map as long as the admins didnt add rule that says otherwise
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I have read the Terms of Service, the F.A.Q , and rules of atwar. and in none of them says that i am prohibited from doing whatever i want to with my maps or ban list. so your argument is irrelevant.
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